EP 74: Weight Loss & Long Term Behavioral Change With Max Lowery || WBWL

We had an amazing guest speaker on our podcast, Max Lowery, who’s a renowned weight loss coach treating post menopausal women worldwide with long term weight loss and behavioral change.

He believes that with the right support and guidance and mindset, you can escape the constant diet fads, rebounds in weight, so that you can have sustainable changes.

We cover real life tactics to lose weight today, while also uncovering some of the mindset and limiting beliefs that keep our weight exactly where it is.

Tune in today! Excited to share this one with you!

P.S. if you want to learn more about Max and what he does, you can go here to view a free masterclass from him here.

Free Masterclass to drop 3 dress sizes for post-menopausal women: https://www.neverdietagain.uk/register-ig

Max’s instagram: @max.lowery

Transcript

0:01

All right. So welcome to the Won Body, Won Life. Hi, I'm your host, Dr. Jason Won, Lifestyle Physical Therapist. I always teach everything in regards to just how to live a more healthier, more fulfilling, pain free life. And as you guys know, I am a doctor of physical therapy, specifically trained in helping people with chronic pain. But I think another aspect that we also talk about with chronic pain is also weight management. And I actually help my clients a little bit with this as well, teaching them various things around protein intake, just understanding the units of energy and just having more predictability over weight loss. But specifically I have somebody here that has been specializing much longer than me in terms of weight loss. It's actually one of my friends that we met a few years ago. I think we started businesses roughly around the same time and it's just good to have a comrade, a friend that can always go towards whether I'm struggling with my own clients and I need to delegate this out to somebody that really understands weight loss. And it is my friend, Max. So Max, what's going on? How are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Yeah, if you can just explain a little bit more about just your background, so what's your experience, what do you do for a living and ultimately who do you help? Yeah. I'll start like right from the beginning, but wasn't always into fitness and health and weight loss. So I was actually, I worked in finance. I was a stockbroker for four years. My nickname was party boy at that job. I had yeah. I did alcohol abuse, drug abuse all that kind of stuff in quite extreme ways. And then had a revelation that this isn't who I am and what I'm interested in. And it's not what's making me happy. So it went down the route of what makes me happy? Who am I? And so qualified as a personal trainer. This is before fitness, like before Instagram, I think before fitness was like, cool as it was. So it was a bit of a risk. I didn't really know what I was going to do and how well it was going to go. But, quickly realized that actually following my passion and what I was interested in was, a much better way of being and was a personal trainer. Most of my clients were women coming to me for weight loss and they would get some results when they were following instructions. They were working hard in the gym sessions, they were sticking to their calories, sticking to their macros, but then they would always kind of fall off the wagon as it were, or they disappear. The weight would always come back on. And initially I blamed myself. I blamed them. And I was like, it's their discipline, it's their willpower, it's their motivation. that's what's wrong with them. And then it kept happening. And I had this realization what did I, what's going on here? Like, why isn't their behavior changing? And then I was thinking what is behavioral change? How did that happen? And I look back to what I did when I got myself out of being party boy and reined in the drugs and the alcohol and got into fitness. And that kind of got me really interested in the science of behavioral change. And moved into online coaching, which is where we met we started online businesses right before COVID, which was quite good timing. And then really started to see long term results for clients. Once we started to address the root cause of the problem instead of addressing the symptoms. And for us, that's mainly psychological, it's mindset, it's beliefs, it's identity, all that kind of stuff. That's where I am today. I'm a weight loss coach, but really I describe myself as a behavioral change expert. We help clients lose weight in the long term without cutting out their favorite foods without, destroying themselves in a gym. And that's what I've been doing kind of full time and getting incredible results for people around the world for a good four or five years now. Yeah, I know how much impact you have on people's lives. Weight loss is not just an aspect of, just looking better in a bikini or whatever. It's having the ability to, be able to walk, be able to travel, go on hikes that they couldn't do. So you really weight loss. Yeah. Some people just do it for the aesthetic parts. I know that, you're. More than that. And you really help people just like myself to try to dramatically improve their health longterm. So with regards to behavioral change, let's talk about that. What are some of the fundamental things that I think if somebody struggled with weight loss self sabotage, binging, right? They get into a fad diet and then all of a sudden they, they lose a little bit of weight and always come back. They always rebound. You've heard the whole. What are some of the key aspects of behavioral change that people should be thinking about? I think the, let's start with kind of the mistake that people are making. I think the mistake that people make when it comes to weight loss is they're not looking at it like they need to change their behavior. They're just looking at it like I, I've got a goal and I'm going to do something in the short term to get hit that goal of weight loss. And really that works when you've got willpower and motivation. Doesn't work in the long term. And the issue is the more you lose weight, put it back on, lose weight, put it back on. The more you start to develop an identity of someone that cannot succeed at fat loss, you start to question your genetics, your metabolism, your willpower, your motivation. And really the way that we work with clients and really, I would say our USP is we help our clients address the root cause of the problem. instead of addressing the symptoms. And in our experience, we've refined this messaging recently. There are the key five root cause problems, and those are negative self talk, all or nothing thinking, emotional eating, identity and limiting beliefs. Those five things ultimately drive your behavior with food and exercise. So if you suffer for, and no one, like no one has just one of those things. Everyone has all five and they all feed off each other. but there might be one that's a bit stronger than the rest. And really no one ever addresses these things when it comes to weight loss. No like diet plan ever addresses these things. It's just following instructions, willpower, motivation, cutting out your favorite foods. And then as soon as life happens, these things kick in and then the, it all goes to shit. Excuse my language. So that I really, without that understanding of what's the root cause of the problem. You can't change the behavior and that's very much what we focus on for sure. I think a lot of things start with, I think identity is a huge piece. That's only one aspect of what you do, but. As we know, you have a negative identity and then it's going to lead to some negative action, therefore negative results. And I think the word that you said in the beginning was like, people set goals. And I think that's another part of behavioral change. It's not a bad thing to, to set goals. I think that a lot of people are more goal oriented and goals are like, let's say I have a marathon that's coming up. Then for the next six months, you're going to put on your tennis shoes. You're going to do, you're just going to, you're going to gun for it. You're just going to actually stick to it. What after that goal, then a lot of people after goal, they'll fall off. They stopped running. Cause they're like, I achieved it. I got my metal. I'm good. Same thing goes with even pain relief. It's like people get some pain relief and then they don't have long term behavioral change. So they stopped doing the exercises that helped them in the first place. Same thing goes with not eating the foods and using, utilizing, your coaching in the long term as well. So tell me a little bit about even the limiting beliefs. I feel like there's a lot, right? And that's a huge aspect. But what are those limited beliefs that prevent somebody from losing weight? Yeah, there's a whole host. Obviously, it depends on the individual, but I'd say the common ones are I don't have the time. I don't enjoy. Exercise. I don't enjoy being active. I've always been the chubby one. I don't have the capacity to get better at this or whatever it is. I failed so many times. What, why would I not fail again? It's these kinds of limiting beliefs and the worst things about them is that a lot of the time they're unconscious. You don't even realize they're a problem. But ultimately they are dictating your behavior. If you believe it's not possible for you to lose weight. because of your previous experience, then you'll still try, but you won't actually try because you don't really believe it's possible. And it's like this negative feedback loop that feeds itself in a vicious cycle. And really the limiting beliefs are made worse by the more fad diets that you do. Fad diets, diet culture feed all of these five root cause problems and make them worse and often are. The reason that they're in the first place. So yeah, without, and really the process that we go through with our clients, myself and my team, I have a team of coaches are trained to listen to language. And the language that our clients use about themselves, the way they talk about themselves out loud, but also how they think about themselves in their own head is really important. And with one on one coaching and support proper like experts and coaches should be able to Hear those limiting beliefs and bring them to the table and help our clients question them and determine whether or not they are true or not. Yeah. Awesome. That's really good. With regards to how your team helps people. I've read a lot of books around like neuroplasticity and rewiring, right? It's like you have to rewire the brain in order to perceive things differently. And I think that's clearly something that you do especially when it comes to behavioral change. What are actually. Whether it's measurable ways or actually, we could talk about this, but how do you actually implement it? Do you, are they writing words of affirmations and writing all the negative self talk, not in a diary and saying Hey, that's this. I'm going to replace this negative word with this positive word. Yeah. I'm trying to think of things that even I've done. I think I always individualize it to the client as well. And I'm sure you guys do that as well. But what are some specific ways where, you know, somebody's listening to this podcast and they can actually say, Hey, this is like a measurable way where I can start to change the limiting beliefs and some of the I guess some of the self sabotage that they may be talking to themselves. Yeah. I would say the first step. is mindfulness. So we actually have a mindfulness expert within the program. And I don't know what you know about mindfulness, but I came across it cause I actually suffered from, I'm not going to get too much detail about it, but we were renovating a house trying to run a business and we had a death in the family. And I had experienced these symptoms of like panic and anxiety and what's called the right D realization. It's like a Disassociative disorder. Never ever experienced any of these things before in my life. I went through a bit of a kind of mental health journey, had therapy, ended up with mindfulness coaching. And really what I realized that mindfulness coaching is awareness. Like you are becoming more aware of what's going on inside your own head. And what are the thoughts, the feelings, the beliefs, the reactions, the emotions, which dictate to certain behaviors. And so really incorporating mindfulness and mindfulness is, yes, meditation. That's kind of one. Aspect of it, but just like listening to your thoughts, like being as intentional and aware as you can be on a day to day basis instead of being stuck on autopilot. And this sounds like quite difficult to understand and how this works, but. Anyone listening to this now that I've said this, you'll have more awareness that this is going on. So you can now in certain situations, listen to what is that voice in my head saying? And once you have that awareness, you can then, because usually what happens is there's no awareness, a thought pops into your head. You're not good enough. You're not going to be able to do this, which then creates a feeling, which creates a reaction or a behavior. And then people are stuck in this. It's automatic behaviors, and they're on autopilot. Essentially. Now that you're aware that you've had this thought that you're not good enough, and you can't do this, you can actually in that moment be like, Why? Why is that voice saying that? Is it true? Do I have evidence to suggest otherwise? What would I say to a friend if my friend was saying this about themselves? And journaling can be a part of that. Journaling can help bring thoughts to the surface. And you can become more aware of it. But I would say meditation, journaling, and just listening to your thoughts on a day to day basis will is that first step, like that aware, you can't change your behavior if you're not aware of what the limiting beliefs are, the negative self talk, the reason you're turning to food in times of stress and negative emotion. It's really valid point, Max. I think the term that I. Meta thinking. So it's like thinking about your thinking is thinking about your thoughts. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So when you hit, you're trying to go beyond that. It's like when you think about something, you can easily just think about it, but then still take the negative action. But when you actually put realistic thought into, for example, I even have this trouble. I will definitely admit social media killer of things, right? It's just like I could be helping my kid with something. And all of a sudden I'm on my phone, all 15 minutes passed by. What the hell just happened? If you didn't know Max, I was actually, I learned a little bit. My, I had my own weight loss journeys around. I was very obese growing up. I had dude, ice cream, burgers. My dad was like burgers, Taco Bell, all this. Not to blame my dad by any means, good food. And one thing, it was like I was getting made fun of a lot, so I got taunted a lot in like middle school for my weight. I played basketball. People were like, you're the slow kid. They, it got to a point where I got pretty depressed that I was super young age. And you know what that depression led to just led to more eating is like every time I I just wet myself to tears, I would just eat more food and I couldn't stop it and it wasn't until I realized one, I need to gain knowledge from somebody like Max. If I had somebody like Max would have lost it faster, but then I just started thinking about I'm really saying I'm internalizing. I'm fat, I'm unworthy, I'm unathletic because of my weight. And I started to change that. I started to say, Hey, I'm, I'm worthy. I started to actually think about nutrition in a different way. And I was becoming more aware. I didn't know what mindfulness was, but I started to become aware of these thoughts aren't true. I can change these thoughts and I can start to exercise more. I can do things as I can do things with that are within my control, right? Which is called an intrinsic intrinsic low guy, right? It's knowing that you are within control of your own destiny and the things that you can do. And I think that's, again what we try to portray is. Mindfulness then brings forth the abilities to gain more time over your weight, for example. Again, I don't know if people knew that, but, yeah. Huh? I think it's really powerful because what you're describing is exactly the kind of process which happens with our clients. And you had those mindset. You had those realizations for yourself, which is really powerful. And because think about it this way. Let's say that you just done any like crash diets to try and fix that problem at that moment in time. Would that have fixed the problem? No, not at all. So without that awareness of you returning to food in times of stress and negative emotion, and actually you're feeling stress and negative because of how you're talking to yourself. And then obviously there was, budding as well, and it can end up in this vicious cycle and that you managed to get yourself out of that and completely turn it around. But for a lot of people that just continues on for their whole life. And then all of a sudden they're in their forties, fifties, sixties and they've wasted their life kind of stressing and thinking about this and trying to lose weight. And they've developed an identity of someone that cannot succeed. And that permeates into lots of different areas of their lives. Absolutely. Really quick question. Just to put you on the spot with this one, willpower, motivation, me and you both talk about this a lot. Willpower, motivation. Is it a bad thing? Like is can, is willpower, to get somebody back into the gym or will willing yourself to look at your calories and eat less than what is willpower a bad thing or is it a good thing? I think it's, it depends on how you use it. So if you're dependent on willpower and motivation to do anything, then I think it's a bad thing because willpower motivation, I'll tell you that in my opinion, I'd say willpower, you can I see more like discipline and that's potentially you can it's a skill that you can get better at over time. But it's definitely not something you want to depend on, especially in the early part of changing behavior. When it comes to motivation, I really think that just comes and goes like the wind. It's there at the start of the year. It's there before a holiday use it when you've got it. It can, when you have it, absolutely use it. But again, don't set your life up in a way where the only way that you Take action on anything was when you're motivated to do something, and I think ultimately discipline is doing the things you need to do, even when you don't want to. And I think that is a skill that can be developed, but it's for the clients that we work with. We try not to lean into that too much at the start as something like we get them to believe in themselves. We reduce the negative self talk. We get clear on who the future version of themselves are. And after like about 90 days, we start talking about like discipline and maybe we start like training towards a specific exercise goal. Yeah it's difficult. What's your kind of experience with it? I perceive it as the same exact thing. I think that if people rely on willpower motivation, then you can watch as many Arnold Schwarzenegger videos or, Victoria's Secret model, whatever it is, right. That's all false facades anyways. You use those as motivation, if that's what's going to intrigue you. Is that going to, is that really going to help in the long run? Is it going to help you? It's it's fuel. So it might start the engine, but then eventually that fuel is going to run out. So yeah, very common analogy. Another one I really like to use my clients too, when it comes to habitual changes. To help them again, to exercise more, it's like a rocket. So rocket, it's this huge machinery that takes thousands and thousands of pounds of fuel in order to get it off just an inch off the floor. And so sometimes it's yeah, you're coaching someone. They got to do X, Y, Z, and ABC. And it was like, man, this requires. a lot of like mental fortitude into I don't know if I can do this. And that's where accountability comes into play because people are like, no, you can do it. That's support community, all aspects, but eventually you keep using the field. If you didn't, if you stopped early, which is what most people do when it comes to weight loss. Yeah, that rocket comes crashing back down. You got it two inches off the ground. It just comes back down. But what if you kept going? What if you kept going? Yeah, you might use the willpower of it. You might use the, the motivation for a little bit. But what if you eventually convert that into habits, convert it into a lifelong process? Then eventually it's going to get up into the air. It's going to gain momentum. And what happens when it's in space, you can turn off the engine and eventually it's on autopilot. I love that analogy. I'm stealing. Yeah, please do. Please do. I think that's exactly what it comes to weight loss or even with what I do, it's we're trying to make exercise more automated. We're trying to make weight loss more automated. How do you do that? You just don't quit. You just got to keep going, push forward and yeah, it's going to require thousands of pounds of fuel of, of gasoline. Yeah. And it may, everyone's going to go at their own pace. Everyone's going to have, somebody's going to have tons of gasoline. Some are going to have a little bit, so it's going to, that rock is going to move a little bit slower, but nonetheless, once it gets into orbit, that's where lifelong change happens. Yeah, feel free to steal that one. But another thing I wanted to hit on was also habits. Yeah. Habits is something that obviously is sustainable. How do you teach habits to people? What are some of the things that you would instill into your clients? So we have five key habits which we give clients processes like five, five minutes. Love it. Yeah. We've been dialing into that a lot recently, but yeah, we've got five key habits, which every client gets at the start because really they work for everyone. And they can be sustained at the longterm. It's not restrictive. And so the purpose of these five habits and I'll share them now is to ultimately create a calorie deficit without calorie counting. And to just improve relationship with food and take the confusion out. So number one is eat whole foods most of the time. So cook from scratch, fresh ingredients, most of the time, not a hundred percent of the time, because then it gets like unrealistic, like most of the time. So 80 percent of the time. Next thing is to prioritize protein. Like you said earlier, protein is the most important macronutrient for fat loss for a variety of reasons. Once you're doing those two things. Eat until you're full is the third habit because what we've, yeah. And it sounds really counterintuitive. Like we're actually saying eat more at meal times. And the reason for that is because. Most people who are trying to lose weight are calorie restricting. So they're like, Oh, I'm going to eat less at this meal. I'm going to eat less at this meal. And what that means is just hunger and restriction deprivation builds up. And either at the end of the day, at the end of the week, it's all going to go to shit, basically because it'd be overeating. So by eating more at meal times, eating until you're full, you're actually reducing overall hunger. And it leads to less binging, less overeating and other situations, which leads into habit number four, which is probably one of the most important ones. Stop the snacking. Once you're eating two to three square meals today, large prioritizing protein, you'll realize that you don't need to snack. Snacking has become the social norm. But I can't remember, are you with the same age pretty much I think, but I don't know what it was like for you. But I remember when I was at school, snacking was frowned upon. If you snacked in between meals, you would ruin your appetite for your main meal. And it was like, don't do that. But at some point, mainly because of big food. Snacking culture has become normalized. And now people are eating, they've gone from eating three times a day to 15 times a day. And every time you eat, you're giving yourself an opportunity to overeat. So not snacking is a very, eating more at mealtimes and not snacking is a really powerful way to eat less without it actually feeling like you're eating less. The final tip is, activity. So get 7 to 15, 000 steps in per day. We exercise for our clients that are quite overweight is not something we even talk about. We're just like, get as active as you can in a way that's safe and actually you'll burn a ton of calories. And it won't raise your hunger levels. So those five habits are what everyone gets at the start. And then dependent on the individual, we layer in other habits based off what's going on with them. Yeah. The first two I feel are, I wouldn't say like our common knowledge, but if somebody actually did a Google search. Prioritize proteins. Like protein in Greek actually means of utmost importance. I don't even do that. It's yeah, it's insane. And I actually see in the same exact way, prioritize protein. Other one, that's pretty obvious that people should know it's like whole foods versus the package to process stuff. The third one I think is where people are like. Man, that's interesting. So you eat to your full and isn't that going to perpetuate more negative behavior? But it's so true. And something that actually helped with my kind of secondary weight loss, like I gained some weight after kids, I was at like 175 and then I started showing my journey of getting down like 148. Yeah. So yeah, I was shredded and I was like in the best shape. I felt like I'm still in good shape. But one thing that people don't know on how I did that was the timing of nutrition. When I worked out. Some people think if I want to lose weight, I got to work out to death and I got to eat very little. The thing is if you're doing any like cardio or strength training, you have no fuel in the tank to actually get a good effective workout. You're just going to hurt yourself or just get exhausted and burnt out and then you're going to not want to exercise. So it's again, another behavioral thing. I eat like crazy before working out. Like I usually prioritize about one gram per kilogram of carbohydrates. I'm usually very disciplined about 65. to 75 grams of carbs. And that seems like a lot, but you know what that does? I work out. I get an amazing workout, but actually even after workout, it's not like I'm having a binge. Like I actually eat so much that I can feel the same thing that you said, Max is I feel satiated. I don't feel like I have to snack. So even when you said avoid snacking the fact that I ate such a large meal before the workout actually prevents the snacking from happening. But that's another thing that you really hit on max. It was like the, even the two mil a day, right? It's a book that you. That you wrote about tell me a little bit more around what are your suggested like frequency of meals and why are they important? Yeah, so I wrote Two Meal Day in 2017. So that's a good seven years now. And I still primarily eat two meals a day. Right now I'm actually doing a lot of cycling. I'm training to cycle across the French Pyrenees where I live. So sometimes it's two and a half meals, sometimes it is three meals, but on the whole is two large meals. And I think when I wrote the book I was not as aware of the science of behavioral change at that stage. And I very much thought that intermittent fasting was the solution that everyone needed. And I think I still believe it's an incredibly powerful tool. Obviously you drop a meal. It makes it harder to eat more calories, but it doesn't. Feel like a diet because you're still eating large satisfying meals. I think there's a lot of mistakes that people make with it, but it's not going to fix any of the root cause five problems that I listed. If you've spent a lifetime of dieting, like most of our clients have coming in and doing intermittent fasting, it's just going to end up like another fad restrictive diet, which they're going to fail at. So with our clients, they do end up doing at some point, it very much depends at what stage in the journey, but they have to kind hit some prerequisites first. And they're very flexible with it. They don't, so I don't even like labeling myself and my clients as doing intermittent fasting. We teach them to eat intuitively. And I really actually hate the term, the way that most people use it, like intuitive eating it, the way that it's spoken about on social media is not actually intuitive eating. But actually what intermittent fasting, the two mil can do is truly teach you intuitive eating, which is. You learn to differentiate between real hunger, which is something that occurs every 12 to 24 hours and what I call perceived hunger, which is habit, boredom, routine, stress, emotion, environment. And the issue is if you've never extended your fast and never spent time without food in your stomach you'll never experience those perceived hungers coming and going and actually getting comfortable with realizing, Oh, just because I feel this urge to eat, I don't actually have to eat and I'll be able to function fine without it. And I think that. is really powerful and a true sense of intuitive eating. And that's where we try and get all our clients to, yeah, for sure. The intuitive, have you read the book intuitive eating? There's a few, I'm not sure if I've read that one specifically. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's just in regards to it's some of the things that you've already highlighted around. A lot of people have It was mainly highlighted around females that have specific food eating disorders, like bulimia and, binge eating. And I think a huge aspect of that, what they were still saying, is hey whole foods, but also at the same time, changing the psychology around who you are as a person really makes a difference. And those thought patterns and the negative thought patterns, it just perpetuates, again, more negative behaviors. One of my favorite sayings is we have 99 negative thoughts about ourselves, only 90 percent of the world. Actually, only a 5 percent of them are actually true, right? If anything, none of them are true. So when you're speaking these negative thoughts about yourself, it doesn't do you any good. The time. Yeah. They're only true if you believe that true. Absolutely. Timing wise, a lot of people that say that, so again, you're coming to limiting beliefs around time. Like I don't have time to do X, Y, Z. I'm a busy mom of two. Max, you can't help me because I don't have time. What do you even do with some of the people that have that limiting belief coming into, let's say your program, but also when they're in your program and let's say you start to find out like they are strapped for time. They're a lawyer. They have three kids and and like I can't kick in 15, 000 steps. That's impossible. What, how do you manage that type of to earn us? That's most of our clients. I've had a ton of lawyers over the years and some of the lawyers with like young children as well. We do specialize in helping busy women. So I think really the way that we work, our kind of model is we try and get our clients the maximum results, but we do it with a minimum dose. So we're always trying to find what's the absolute minimum. That someone needs to do in order to get a result. And that can be really hard to do when you're trying to work that out yourself when you are really busy, because, and you suffer from all or nothing thinking it's going to be impossible to find that out yourself, but obviously with our kind of experience, we've been doing this for 10 years, we're very good at just focusing on the absolute essential and the minimum when our clients have more time, more motivation, more willpower, yeah, they can do more, but they know they don't need to sustain that forever. So I think. It's a combination of that kind of model and that expertise which helps. And yes, 15, 000 steps is not realistic for some of our clients, but it doesn't, then it has to get 15, 000 steps. They can get 7, 000 steps and, dial into nutrition and address the reasons why they're overeating in certain situations, like emotional eating. Those don't necessarily take time out of your day. They take changing how you think and how you react. And then when it comes to changing people's beliefs I think, yeah, that's certainly something that we out of objection we come across. Usually once clients are in the program, one of the first things we'll do actually is we'll do a screen time evaluation, especially for clients that are saying, Oh, I don't have the time. I thought, okay, cool. How much time do you spend on your phone? And you'll find out it's five hours a day. They're scrolling like two hours. It's very objective. Like you spend three hours on your phone. Yeah. You can't spend 30 minutes walking, right? Yeah. And it's as you said, it's a struggle for you. It's a struggle for me. I have to incorporate, I'm very honest about my own screen time and it's a constant battle, but I think it's just changing people's perspective and people's priorities ultimately. And I think the issue is obviously people are busy and the clients we work with are busy, but I think with phones, and this is something I'm really interested in, I think there's a perceived sense of busyness because there's all these notifications. There's WhatsApp, there's email, there's Instagram, there's Facebook, and people are looking at their phone and seeing all these notifications. And they're spending all this time on the phone and feeling constantly busy and working themselves up into a stress and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, changing relationship with phone is a really like critical part of what we do with our clients and helping them realize that actually there are, there is enough time in the day. To do what they need to do. And what they need to do is actually not too much, when you really know what works for them as an individual then it doesn't have to consume your life. And yeah, I think a lot of people have these beliefs about time because of what they've tried in the past, which is sign your life away, weigh every gram of food, train seven times a day. Which is what I do, but I know that some people are not at that. Some people just don't have that type of craziness, but But time wise another thing that I, especially with time, we both treat very busy people. One way that I really change people's kind of mindset around time is realizing time is our most precious commodity because every second we actually just don't get it back. Yeah. So time spent, especially when it comes to weight management, time spent going onto this fad diet and then failing again, time spent here and doing this again. Absolutely. Absolutely. That is time spent away from the things you want to do, the things you love. If you're not losing weight, you are not hiking with your kids. You are exhausted when you can't chase your son down. You can't show them the sports that you did because you're 20 pounds down. So I like to change people's mindset by saying if you don't spend the time to really make meaningful change in your life, You're actually decreasing your time from the things you want to do. The people that you love. It's like an opportunity. Yeah. And another way to say it is the famous Canadian author, like knowing your why, Simon Sinek. Yeah. Cause that, that can really compel you to change things that I always say is like when I'm unmotivated to work out, which is rare, but if you're, let's say you're unmotivated to work out or you're unmotivated to to be more intuitive with your eating. Think about your why did you start this journey in the first place? I want to be there for my kids. Why do you want to go for your kids? Because I don't want to die early. Why do you want to die early? Because this is what happened to my, this is what happened to my parents. And I didn't have the opportunities because my parents, they couldn't do this XYZ. So getting even deeper from an emotional level. Emotion then compels people to really make those, want to make those changes. A hundred percent. That's definitely something that I've really, we've always got people to when they started the program to they actually do the true self doctrine, which I think you might've done. We did. So they do the true self doctrine, which is a document you write about yourself in the future as if it's already happened and that's getting really clear. Yeah. I would say that's one thing I've really Has improved our coaching and also selling the program ultimately, because a lot of the clients that we work with are completely disconnected with how bad the situation is because it's become normalized. And so they're like listing these things like, oh, yeah, I can't get out of bed in the morning. I can't walk up the stairs. I can't. Be intimate with my partner. They kind of listing those things like really matter of fact, like this is just normal. And it's our job as coaches really to like actually help them realize that's not normal at all. And like, how is that actually impacting them on a day to day basis and what would their life look like if actually they could do those things? They weren't weighed down by this psychological and physical weight. So yeah, you're right. The, what connecting with the deep Y. And the emotion that's involved in the reality of the situation is an essential part of behavioral change, because if you're not connected with it, you're not going to have that drive to get yourself out of the situation. Yeah. And that is where motivation and discipline, sorry, even motivation. That is where motivation is okay to use willpower. It is okay to use when you're down in the dumps, you've hit rock bottom. And you are just self sabotaging yourself, just F it, I'm just going to keep eating, right? When you start to think of your why, and you compel yourself almost to the point of tears I really need to make these changes, that motivation compels you to get out of that hole. Then eventually, again, it's like the rocket, where you're going to have to work deathly hard in order to change those behaviors. But that's where, people like Max are here to help you. more sustainability versus again, looking at those magazines, imposter syndrome, and then you're, again, you're on these fad diets again. So I guess with that being said Max, if there's, I guess if there's anything else that you want to leave our audience with any. Any big points, like if there is a woman out there, she's trying to lose weight she's listening to the podcast now, and if there's one thing that you can tell that person, what would it be? I think all I can say is, however you want to lose weight, whatever it is, And make sure it is addressing the root cause of the problem. Like it's easy to do what's familiar and address the symptoms of the issue. But guess what? Keep doing the same thing over and over again. You'll get the same results. The only way that you will actually get meaningful change is if you address the real reasons why you are in that situation in the first place. So whoever it is, doesn't have to be us. Make sure that whoever you work with is aware of these key issues that I've mentioned earlier. And that is mindfulness defined right there. In any case, Max I genuinely appreciate you being here. I know we've known each other for a while. I feel like we coached in very similar ways. I can't just. Different people that we treat. So I'm really appreciative of your accuracy. And if anybody wants to learn more about you, find more, find out more about you where can they find you? Probably Instagram is the best place is@max.lowery L O W E R Y. And I'd say if people want to have a deeper understanding of how we help our clients I can link a little kind of Training or, Jason, you can link it and because it's like a 20 minute, 25 minute masterclass that people can learn about for sure. We'll definitely stick that into the description section. All right, Max. I know this is not our last conversation. We talk pretty often, but again, just want to appreciate your expertise. And if anybody wants to reach out to Max, feel free to do with that being said, this kind of concludes the one body, one life podcast. I'll end this thing. And the same way I always do, we do only have one body, one life. So maybe make every action you take be one that makes you a better version of you. Take care and have a beautiful rest of your day.