Neck Pain Relief Neuropathic Arm Weakness with Larry || WBWL Ep 83

This is a great episode I made last year that people got a lot of values from. I wanted to put this one back on just in case you have missed this.

This was an amazing interview with one of my most ambitious clients, Larry, who suffered with neck pain that became so bad that he lost strengthen in his dominant arm.

The neck has delicate relations to the nerves that go down the arm and control sensation and motor control. So when nerves are pinched acutely or chronically over time, it can lead to temporary but sometimes permanent weakness of your arm.

This was Larry’s fear, considering how often he used that arm for weight training, exercise, and being at the computer for his job.

After weeks of working with him, we were able to eliminate majority of his neck pain, restore function in his arm, and get him back to a state of normalcy.

I’ve been thankful to meet people like Larry who was ambitious enough but brave enough to seek out rehab and coaching outside of traditional means to get him to his health goals.

Transcript

0:02

Hello, everybody. Dr. Jay here. I'm a doctor of physical therapy, also specialize in sports, orthopedics and helping people with chronic pain. I have one of my clients here, and he's definitely a great friend of mine now, and he's done great work, and I'm very happy that he is open to sharing his experience about His kind of battles with his upper body his neck. And I myself have had my own struggles with like years of chronic neck and back issues after a couple of car accidents. So this is something that is definitely significant and sentimental to me is to help more people. To share my tools and my strategies and my experience with other people so that they can follow suit. His name's Larry is from Southern California. So he is just my neighbor down South. And Larry, welcome in, man. How are you? Good. Good. It's good to be here, Jason. Good to be talking with you this morning. How are you doing? Awesome. All right. I appreciate you being here. And if you don't mind, I know that we met through just online, we met through Facebook algorithms, crowd us together, if you will. I'm not exactly sure what the story was there, but yeah, just tell me Larry, just tell the crowd a little bit about yourself, what you do for a living and what sort of things do you enjoy doing? Sure. My name is Larry Maddox and I work as an editor on film and TV shows. Which means I spend an awful lot of time at desks, staring at monitors, and pretty intensely, I get it's not a shocker for me to put in a 12 hour day where I'm really sitting there for a full 12 hours, working away. Got it. Yeah. And so I know you're a father as well. Yeah. Yes. I have two lovely daughters. And my wife is a high school teacher. My wife is in great shape. She runs and exercises all the time. So she's a real inspiration to me. Okay. And my daughters are into exercise a lot too. And I remember it's not like it's that long ago, but we often work out together. I'll teach. I remember I taught them how to do pushups and squats and your basic stretches, your hamstring stretches and touching your toes. And now it's just part of their regular routine. Absolutely, man. And exercise is obviously a big part of my life. My wife is also in great shape. In fact, she's a very round shape at the moment. She's around seven to eight months pregnant. So we're going to have a daughter October, late October. So we're preparing for Halloween, babe, potentially. And I might honestly be knocking at your door, Larry, for advice on how to raise daughters. I know you often hear the dads are always talking about sons and how wanting sons, if they don't have kids, but I am so happy to have my daughters. And they make me smile and very happy every day. So I'm sure you're just going to be loving The daddy daughter experience for sure. Yeah. I'm looking forward to spoiling the princess, if you will, because he's the prince of the family. He gets what he wants. I feel like I'm just going to crumble in front of my daughter and just be bowing at her knees, but we'll see. We'll see how that goes, man. Larry, I just want to touch base with you and sharing a little bit about what sort of things that have been going on with you health wise prior to us meeting. So I gave some backdrop in terms of neck pain and how we had that similar type of struggles. But you don't mind sharing with the group in terms of how was your experience with neck pain beforehand? And what sort of things were you struggling with? Oh, sure. It happened. My, my big problem happened right around the time of the pandemic and the pandemic kicked in. I was just, it was the beginning of 2020. I was just coming off of. Really intense TV show. That was a lot of work and I spent a lot of time on the desk, a lot of deadlines, a lot of pressure, and I was in the epidemic was just kicking in. I remember I was, anyway, what happened was I stood up somewhere and I hit my head on something and I didn't really even hit it that hard, but I felt something was definitely off. It was like these icy fingers went from the back of my neck down my back. I'd never experienced that before. Being a tall person, I've often had neck and back problems and I go to, I go, I see a physical therapist and stuff goes away and I'm fine again, but this was completely different. And just shortly after that, I discovered that I had lost almost all the strength in my right arm. I could still. Turn a doorknob and I could still pick up a pencil and I could draw, but I couldn't push open a door. I couldn't push a shopping cart. I couldn't push myself out of my chair and I'm right handed. And let me tell you, that's a freaky experience. So all of a sudden lose your strength in your right hand. I remember I would test it out. Here's my right hand here. And my wife would put one finger against my right hand and I would push against her finger with all my might. And she could easily, easy, just with her, With my pushing, she would easily just push my hand away, even though I was pushing. And besides that, I was in a lot of pain day and night. There wasn't just, it was funny enough, even though I know I had injured my neck, the pain was in my upper back. Anyway, I should also add that I had an MRI. It wasn't. So I wasn't diagnosed with myself. I had an MRI and it showed what they call the severe neck herniation at C67. And another problem at above that at C5, C6. Anyway, I was in a lot of, I was in the worst shape of my life. It was, and I've been in some accidents and stuff, and I've suffered injuries before in the past, but this for the longevity and the amount of pain and losing the power of my right arm. Nothing really matched this before, and I felt really inadequate in dealing with it. How was that experience in general? Especially because for some How was that experience? It was awful. Yeah. It was awful. It was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. I felt like I just stepped into another world. My pain was constant, night and day. The doctors would prescribe pain medications to me. Nothing was working. They just turned me into a zombie. The one drug that comes to mind is Gabapentin. Which actually isn't, if I found out later, isn't really a painkiller. What it does is adjust your mind and dealing with pain. So it's a mind drug, not really a pain drug. That was, and I, that turned me into a zombie and I had to get off of that. And nothing else seemed to work. I just had to deal with it. Yeah. And I'm really sorry to hear that experience, but obviously you're in better shape now. What sort of specific things, like when you had that more, you've gone to physical therapy in the past, but What sort of treatments or things did you try after the more severe nerve injury? I have a, I'm fortunate that I have a very, my health insurance covers me for some really great physical therapy. I think I can go to the best and they, my physical therapist, I really liked her. She just didn't necessarily give me exercises to do. She would give me basically some exercises, but a lot of massage. And which was so painful, just touching those areas that were inflamed already. But I would walk out of there feeling I would feel better for a time. And I do believe overall it was a helpful experience, but it was not, it was, it just, everything seemed temporary. And I was also going to my own. Looking for some for looking for some chiropractors. I was doing a lot of research online regarding this and generally chiropractors weren't working. I felt it was a big waste of time until I did find a chiropractor who practiced something called Cox therapy, which I think I told you about and it genuinely worked. It's and I would recommend it. So between physical therapy and Cox therapy and whatever exercises I could glean from the internet because I do believe in it. I've always believed in exercise. Those were the things I would, I was doing also during this time, though. I know I felt really fragile because I was in so much pain. So I, my ex as far as exercise, he was concerned. I was afraid to push anything. And I was afraid to, I was just afraid. I was afraid to hurt myself and make it worse. I was in such bad shape. I didn't want to. Re injure myself or make anything worse. Yeah, I understand. For some background on people that aren't really familiar with kind of nerve injuries, usually what it starts off with is imagine if you just bumped your elbow on something, usually you hit that's so called funny bone. A lot of times they'll send like waves of tingling or things down your pinky. I'm sure many people have experienced that. And that's actually just like a temporary nerve insult, which is called neurotimesis. And it's just very temporary, right? It's gradual. Once. you feel that shock. Eventually you gain strength or like you gain back that feeling back in your arm. But what you essentially went through is more of like a nerve, like a more chronic nerve injury, where after the injury, there's a little bit of atrophy. So like the muscles become smaller and less resilient. And that's what we call like neural neuronal degeneration, which Does unfortunately it comes with numbness and then if there's more of a nerve insult, then the numbness does eventually come with atrophy as well with like atrophy or weakness. So that takes a little bit more time and I'm glad that you definitely obviously stuck with it. Larry, if you did it, then you definitely might, there's a lot of people that never truly regain any strength. A lot of times that arm just becomes fully dead. Oh, I don't remember the numbness. I don't know what numbness you're talking about. I wasn't numb at all. I was in agony. And it was I would lay in bed at night and the pain wasn't even in one area. It would be, it would travel. I would lay there and I have to adjust a pillow or address my back and would be on the left side and be on the right side. It would be in the middle and it was often two places at once. And sometimes it felt like somebody was digging a knife pick into my back. Yep. And other times it felt like somebody was pounding my back. And sometimes it would feel that way at this, both things at the same time. I wasn't, it was like, anyway, I wasn't getting any sleep. It was miserable. It was absolutely miserable. And also I just want to mention too, one effect, all the gory details. The half of my body that was affected was the right side and I lost my right arm. I lost the muscle on that right side. It was less, I lost my pectoral muscle, lost my shoulder muscle. It was weird. So I would look in a mirror and I would look like two different people. I had muscle on my left side and I had nothing on my right side. And it was freaky. Yeah. Yeah. So some people just bypass the, essentially the sensory insults. So like the sensory insults, like if somebody got numb, so it comes in either numbness or sometimes intense tingling or sometimes intense pain. Some people just bypass that. It's like intense pain sensor sensory wise, but also comes with that weakness where, you Your wife is pushing on your arm and you really can't budge her. So I get it. That's obviously a very scary experience to go through. So fast forward to when you were exposed to some of my content. And I think that's where most people start off is they start to see some of my, the things I'm putting out. So what kind of intrigued you in the first place to, to, I don't know, you have to say, Oh, maybe like there, there's potential to, to work with me. Was there anything that kind of stuck out to you at all? Yeah. Yes, I would watch. I was watching your videos. I was doing a ton of research Online and I was watching your videos over the course of time And I wanted to see if you were the real deal or not I wasn't sure having gone through some chiropractors who I felt I don't want to say they misadvertised Sure, but they didn't really do much except for the cox therapy. I just want to reiterate that was real But the I just didn't know who you were you're a guy on an internet So I would listen to you and you would give some exercises. I thought this guy is giving away some of his secrets For free. That's interesting. And also, I think the number one thing reason, though, was that. You talked about having a neck injury and how you came back from that and how you would see a chiropractor and how the chiropractor or physical therapy. I think you said chiropractor. I'm not sure. I don't remember now, but it wasn't really helping you. You would get a temporary fix. And I understood the whole thing about having a temporary fix because that's what I was getting. I would walk out of a chiropractor. Sometimes I feel great for half an hour, but by the time I got home, it all started creeping back all the pain in my neck and back. So I talked to you And I talked to my wife about it. It was a financial commitment and. I thought we both decided it's worth it. It's worth a try. Sure. And I'm very grateful that I made that decision. Yeah. I appreciate that. I appreciate the fact that we're still continuing to this day when we've worked out of the exact duration, but it's been close to a year and yet I still, it's been over, it's been almost a year and a half, I'd say. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a while. Yeah. And that's what I love. I love. I feel that there's a lot of people that will definitely say they have a passion for what they do. And I'm sure that's true, but I hopefully people feel the intense passion that I have for helping people because I continue to try to keep in touch with people. Even though there's thousands of people, I still try to keep in touch with the Larrys and the Johns and all the people out there that I've had an experience with, because Ultimately, if I've had even just a glimpse or some form of light impact on their life, that is essentially my job. And that's what continues to drive me to, to do what I do. So going into how let's dive into like our first session and everything, if you can date back to it, actually, but how did you feel like when you, when we first started working together and we started to employ like either the evaluation and the exercises and things we prescribed. So what was your overall like impression and experience, especially Considering it's something that you've never tried, like more of an online basis remotely you're in SoCal, I'm in NorCal, what was that overall experience on the first session? It was a good experience at this point. It was about almost two years since I suffered my injury and I'd gotten a little bit better. Meaning to say I was able to sleep at night and I recovered, I would say about 50 percent of the strength of my arm. Cause I did continue working out and exercising to the best I could. So I was, I remember I entered our first, I was, I wanted it to work so badly, but I was also had a lot of caution. But I was fully committed to what you were going, what you're telling me to do. And it was nice having a voice like yours, somebody who'd gone through what I had gone through and somebody who was an expert and somebody who was helping others. It was nice having you tell me what to do and to design a program for me. It made me feel very hopeful because I felt I wasn't alone and I felt I could go for it. So you sussed out my situation and you designed an exercise program for me. And we did that through the course of the following lessons. We stuck to it. You saw how I did it, which I'm sure I was pretty awkward at first. A lot of these things you gave me to do, I didn't, I'd never done before. I always have gone to the gym and lifted weights. And I just believed in that. I believed in exercise. I played sports in school. I just believe that was, it was important to do that, to take care of yourself. When I got really busy with jobs, sometimes I let that slide though. And when they, that was part of my problem, I think I let that slide. But so anyway, I felt confident and hopeful after that first session. The belief aspects are really critical. So definitely with Larry, I feel like he had a step forward already in the right direction. Like your foot was already. Over the line where you already had a belief or a sense of self efficacy and self efficacy is just saying that if you have a true belief, either in yourself or in another practitioner that their philosophy or your own strategies they work that already puts you ahead of the curve and that creates autonomy. And autonomy is just your independence with, okay, once I solve this if Jay is providing this, I'm going to be. Head forward with this. I'm going to be all in. And sometimes when you see people that are not all in and they have maybe like skepticism or they have a 50 percent belief that's going to work, but then they're like, roll it on the fence with things you're likely to create less of the massive actions that you took. And therefore less action yields less results. So then you're going to either continue to go with like your half assed type of efforts, or you're going to potentially give up, which definitely Larry. I appreciate the fact that once we integrated things, I saw you logging your workouts. I saw you doing the work, you implement the strength and mobility. And that's all I can ask for. Do you know, do you remember any specific things in terms of. Just to enlighten, enlighten people, anything in regards to like, when we talked about the nerve injury and how we were able to employ strength training mobility, was there any specific exercises or philosophies or strategies that you're like, Okay, I'm going to take that to heart. I'm going to use that. It worked. And there's something that you're continuing to use till today. But that's a big question. I hope you have some time. I. I just want to say, I feel like I was tailor made for your program. I brought along one of my little workout booklets. I, where am I? Here I am. So anyway I carry around a workout book. I would carry these to the gym. I would mark everything off when I go to the gym for years, for a long time. And I would work out at home too. And so when you started giving me my program to do. And I feel like I fell right into it. You, one of your big things that you taught were to be consistent and also to do that. I'm more that I was more that I was stronger and less fragile than I found myself believing since my neck injury. As I said, you don't, I don't know if people know what it's like to lose an arm. I didn't lose my arm, but I really, I felt defenseless. I felt I couldn't help my family like I used to be able to. And so I felt fragile really for the first time in my life. And so when I dove into, and, oh, and also your big philosophy too, was it's important to, to build muscle is important. It's important to get strong and build muscle. Stretching and everything is fine. Building muscle and making yourself stronger is really the key. And so those are some of the things that I wasn't fragile. That's important to build muscle that I need to be consistent. These, I felt like these were the things that, these are the things that, that, that made this program really work for me. And so I would, you would give me these exercises. You'd watch me do them. You correct me as a, we did like on a zoom meeting. You correct me. And then you would add to it. And I got to ask a bunch of questions. And I always had a bunch of questions about this. Can I do that? You added bands to the workout and then you added dumbbells. And I never did get that kettle ball. I just, I don't like kettle balls, but I like dumbbells better because I just like being able to adjust the way to take them on and off. I don't like buying one weight I'd rather. So I still use a dumbbell that can add weight to or take it off. And in the beginning I started with super duper lightweights, the kind of weights that I'd be like, if I saw somebody at the gym using these weights, I'd be, I would smirk and say, this is not for real. What is this person doing? I wasn't that bad, but I was just, it wasn't, It's a serious, it wasn't, I couldn't consider it serious, but at the time it's all I could do and it's all I could lift. And so anyway, yeah, for one to install the belief in yourself that you're not as fragile as you think. It's something that I always tried to preach, especially for those with chronic injuries and atrophy or anything like that. It's one, you have to install that belief. You may not install the belief that you're Arnold Schwarzenegger, but you have to install the belief that you have Previous workout experience. This is just a temporary insult to the body. It's just like a honestly It's just like a temporary chapter in the book if you will that is that you come back from right? You're working like editing about the stories and all that is that usually With people that go through these insults. A lot of times, if you are resilient and you persevere, you become a much stronger individual for that. And you become a much smarter individual for that too. Yeah. Can I just add something though? You're saying it was temporary, but in my mind, when this exercise happened and and as the pain continued and became what I thought was a chronic condition, I didn't think it was temporary. And my doctors never told me that I was going to get better. And they never said that even, and they wanted me to have surgery. And so I didn't, it's easy for people, it's easy to now look back at it as temporary because I'm so much better now. But at the time I thought, Oh my gosh, this is my life. I'm going to be in pain every day. I can't hold down a job. I'm going to have to go on. Some sort of something, some sort of something financial to, to, so I can bring home some sort of money. I forgot what they call it, some sort of program, but it was a scary thing. And so actually your training made me feel that this was not going to be temporary. There actually could be a light at the end of the tunnel for sure. But yeah, I was faithful with these exercises. You you gave me, there were three sets of daily, Exercises I would do there was a morning. I called it a morning one It was the most more intense of the ones it took about 12 minutes to do Yep, I had the most exercises in it. Let me just look. Can I just look at my former fast? I had the list Yeah. Yeah. No worries. Various exercises. Oh, I'm glad you didn't delete it out. Yeah. No, it's right here. So yeah, it's good. Anyway, I have a little pictures of it too. It's just a little picture next to a description, but like a kneeling thoracic extension was a big one. You're going to have to describe these all these sort of cervical rotation with band or towel. Different, just different ones. That would be like one to do. I would do it during the day. Then there was a midday one. Yeah. Yeah. I considered my midday one, which was really my foam roller workout. Yeah. Yeah. He's the foam roller. And I would get on my side, do side laying thoracic windmills. I don't remember the names of this. I just remember the exercises, but I'm looking at my descriptions here and different foam roller exercises. Those would be a little quicker. And I could just, I could whip out maybe two sets of those while I'm, and I'm thinking about when I was working, I would go back and do these. And then at night, there's a nighttime workout. Where I would just stretch out a little bit and there'd be more windmills. And those would be my daily workouts that I would do. And then you gave me two more real major strength building workouts. Now, one, which I would do like over the weekend, Saturday or Sunday. And one I would pick out and do during the day, just cause they took longer and they would be a more heavy duty. And there's just a ton of exercises. I don't know if I can just go into each of these. It's totally fine. I don't think that's necessary to paint the entire picture because ultimately each program that is created is specifically custom to the person and what on assessments. I always say that it's like you don't want to guess just through like social media. It's fine just to start off with but you definitely want to Get some sort of actual assessment so that you know that the exercise are very specific to you. And I'm glad you made that a part of your ritual. I've always preached lifestyle and that like exercise really shouldn't be an option. It should be a privilege. So optional is for people that are going to get temporary gains. You're going to do the exercises and then fall off and then the pain is going to come back. But. Hopefully I've read it something different into you and other people, which is exercise becomes a part of your life. It's already been a part of your life, which is great. And then when definitely when I'm in temporary, I need, I want to convince my clients that it is indeed temporary. It's just a temporary insult to the body. It's a. Kind of a low point of the hero's journey. And because there are a lot of people that if they install the belief that pain or weakness will always be a part of them, they're going to obviously their mindset and everything and all their actions are going to start to reproduce and perpetuate a sense of fragility for the rest of your life. And that's what happens. And that's what so many people in the world go through is. He listened to a doctor, an authority figure that says you're going to live with this Larry for the rest of your life. And immediately because it's an authority figure, you are definitely going to believe it, or you're going to be, try to be more resilient and find other options that somebody or something that will teach you otherwise. But yeah, so with regards to that, Larry, what do you feel, if anything, was like your big, either your biggest mental or even physical win or take away from our time and our experience working together? I felt I could take control of my situation and not leave it up to having to go in to physical therapy and leave it up to somebody else. I felt that I could make myself stronger and that I wasn't that fragile and I could do these exercises routinely and I would, and I was, and it made me better. I also felt that if I feel the pain starting to reestablish itself, which does happen still to this day, there were things that I could do. To make it go away, especially my always because I, because initially when this happened, I went without sleep for so long. When pain would start to settle in at nighttime, I would think to myself, I still occasionally do, Oh, does this mean I'm not going to get a good night's rest tonight? But there's exercises you've given me to do, which put the pain at bay or make it go away. So that's a big, those are probably the two biggest things I think I've taken away from with you. I like that phrase. I might steal it from you, put it up there and make it go away, which is great. Either reduce it or completely eliminate it. And it's great to even just catch up with you. I get very emotional about like when I do speak with my clients and whether it is a transformation that they've gotten with me or whether they've figured out a way on their own, is that my whole. point in my job as a physical therapist, but even more as a coach, I consider myself more as a coach is to coach people to empower them that they are not fragile, that they can do this on their own and everything legitimately, almost everything outside of maybe Achilles rupture or something like these bigger injuries that may require actual surgical interventions that most things physically in the body can be healed. Just by learning, just by, just through knowledge, just through exercise. And as long as you stay consistent and resilient with it, which is till this day, a year and a half later, you still got these screenshots. You still got these exercises. And I'm very appreciative that with what you do, it's, you're not a person that has given up on these exercises and said, okay, now that I'm better, now I can just put this on the back burner. So what is, overall, I have not seen you in a while. So what have you been doing nowadays? I'm just very curious on What activities are you doing? What sort of exercise are you doing? How are you still continuing to stay in a more of a pain free state? I am continuing to stay in a pain free state. But it takes work, because sometimes I do feel I still feel stuff in my neck and especially in my upper back, the things I still do. I don't do your three times, the three times a day workouts anymore. I hate to say that. Yeah. But I still do your big time workouts. I'm very, I've been sticking with the more strength exercising workouts. Yeah. So I do, I still do the one over the weekend. I still do the other one once a week and I do some of my own personal workouts that I, and I try to do some sort of exercise every single day. Yeah. And I also, on top of that I know you and I talked about this in the past, I walk every morning and get up 6 a. m. and my wife and I take like a 45 minute walk. Yeah, I like that, just traditions. Yeah, and nothing's, nobody's up at that time. So I can, as I'm walking, I'll do some of the old, this is going to make you laugh, some of the old Charles Atlas exercises. I remember from way back when I was a kid. Sure. Dynamic tension exercises. So I'll do some of those as I'm walking. And I'll tell you, it really knocks you out. And so when I, by the time I come home, I've had a pretty good workout and I'm still editing, I'm still very busy doing what I've always done, edit TV shows and movies, and I ride a lot. And of course, having a great time with my family. Yeah, it's good. Just enjoying life. The great part about when people are like in the trenches with me and they're working on this and they're getting coaching and you're like the pain and everything is higher is. You got to buckle down and you got to do the work right three times a day. Sometimes exercise needs to be more frequent in order to deliver the results that you want. Once you're at a point where, you're someone like yourself, a year and a half out is you still take some of the tools. Hopefully you still stay consistent with even the strength workouts. And that's a great point that you hit on Larry, which is mobility, still stretching, occasional mobility stuff that still should be like. integrated as somebody's part of their life, but you can see that with regards to you staying in a pain free state, what truly keeps you in a pain free state is indeed the strength training, right? If you strengthen the neck, you strengthen the shoulders. You continue to keep your body strong. I find still that strength for me still leads the pack in terms of long term sustainable pain, freedom versus mobility. You can incorporate little neck stretches here and there. It's just that it's not going to be. As effective as somebody that is strength training consistently, which again, Larry, I do appreciate that you couldn't have that point. Cause I would love to hear from you two years later that you're still doing your strength training. You're still doing your thing. Cause that's the thing that I think is really keeping you healthy and keeping your body going. Yeah. I don't ever plan on stopping the strength training ever. Good. Really appreciate the lifestyle change. With that being said, let's say Larry, hypothetically, if somebody was walking down the street, you see them rubbing their neck a lot. You see them like. They look like they're in similar situations as you. I'd love to hear, you won't be a physical therapist, but if you see somebody and you're wanting to help them and they have this, have a kind of mindset, I feel like I'm always going to live with neck pain the rest of my life. I feel like I'm always going to always be in this low level state, feel fragile. They think back to when you were where you were maybe two to four years ago. What would you advise that person? Wow. Having gone through this, it has really given me much more of a heart for people who are in pain. I don't, now that I've experienced, I know what a drag it is and what it does to your life, but I do. I've knowing a lot of my fellow editors and a lot of them do have back issues. I have recommended things, various exercises here and there to all of my friends, and I've also recommended you, I don't know, I think one person I, anyway, I know that I've. I recommended you and online too. I used to belong to some of these neck forums, neck pain forums. I'll always be like, Hey, all these people will give advice and I will give you, you will be my advice. I'll say, Hey, I think you should contact Dr. Jay. He helped me a lot. Here's his number. At least talk to him. It really, I herniated a disc in my neck. My doctor's called it a severe herniation. I think you guys should check him out, but I will talk to people and I will recommend that they, okay. I recommend some little temporary exercises, and I recommend that you get serious about it and contact somebody like you or somebody like you to help fix their problem. I say somebody like you, but I don't know, actually I say, I don't, I've never worked with anybody else but you, so I don't know who that would be except you. Yeah, I'm very thankful and blessed to obviously meet people like yourself who I care less about people referring me and ultimately if people do want to work with me, that's fine. I really just want to have greater impact on the world. That's why I put out so much free content and I get to have the ability to work with people one to one, which is definitely more direct, more personalized. More coaching, especially if Larry, you go through these ups and downs, you're like, ah, I remember there's times where you're like, I've been interested in feeling good. Ah, this feels like it's like aggravating me is that we were able to talk it out together. We're able to demonstrate together. We're able to modify the fly and make sure that workout continues to work for you and that you do have confidence in the long term that, Hey, this is a good exercise. It's just that sometimes we have to modify, change things around. That's where ultimately the customization comes into play too, which I feel like if people are given more cookie cutter things for their neck pain and low back pain, it is very likely that most people, they're not going to see the result that they want. But in any case, Larry I definitely, I don't want to take up too much of your time today, and I do want you to get back to, it's Friday, so I want to make sure you got work. Maybe you got to go walk or take care of your daughters. But in any case, I do appreciate definitely everything that you said today. Hopefully this share this hopefully inspires or impact somebody's life or somebody that may be dealing with similar disc issues or similar neck issues. Just understand that me and Larry have both gone through it and it's definitely possible that you are. A person that may be a good fit to do some strength training and do some things that to empower yourself to be better and to not live with pain as a limiting factor for the rest of your life. Larry, is there anything else? If there is anything else, we covered a lot of ground. Is there anything else that you want to share with the group or anything at all? No, I feel like I've said too much already. I really appreciate the opportunity though and everything I'm saying. It's been a year and a half. And I still remember and appreciate all you've done for me. Thank you, Dr. Jay. Yeah, no problem, Larry. All right, everyone. We'll see you on the, we'll see you later. And thank you, Larry, again for your time.