Overcoming Long COVID and Chronic Pain: Anna Liu's Journey to Empowerment || WBWL Ep 88

In this inspiring episode, we sit down with Anna Liu, a remarkable individual who has faced the immense challenges of long COVID and widespread chronic pain for two long years. 

Anna's story is one of resilience, struggle, and ultimately, triumph. For much of her journey, she experienced debilitating symptoms, including severe post-exercise malaise (PEM) that left her feeling trapped in her own body. Every attempt to engage in physical activity resulted in excruciating pain that seemed to penetrate deep into her bones, often leaving her needing days or even weeks to recover.

Join us as Anna shares her firsthand experiences navigating this arduous path. She opens up about the frustrations of feeling powerless against her own body and the emotional toll that chronic pain can take on one's mental health. 

Her journey takes a pivotal turn when she discovers the Pain Free Academy, where she found not only effective strategies to manage her symptoms but also an incredible support system that held her accountable.

Throughout the episode, we dive into the specifics of Anna’s healing process—how the Pain Free Academy's approach was different from anything she had tried before. We explore the importance of community, accountability, and personalized care in her recovery. Anna reflects on the techniques and mindset shifts that helped her reclaim her life, regain control over her pain, and ultimately, return to weight training.

This episode is not just about overcoming pain; it’s about empowerment. Anna’s journey is a testament to the strength of the human spirit and the possibility of healing. Whether you're struggling with chronic pain, supporting a loved one, or simply seeking motivation, Anna's story will inspire you to believe in the potential for change and the importance of finding the right support.

Tune in to hear how Anna transformed her life from one of suffering to one of strength, and learn how you, too, can take charge of your health and well-being. Don’t miss this powerful conversation that highlights the triumph of the human spirit over adversity!

Transcript

0:03

Welcome to the Won Body Won Life Podcast. Hi, I'm your host, Dr. Jason Won lifestyle, physical therapists. I speak about anything in regards to how to live, not just the pain for your life, but also how to get stronger, more resilient, more mobile as you get older. A lot of my podcast is predicated around longevity, quality of life mentally, what you should be doing from a habitual standpoint on how to live healthier and how to live life more fully. So today I have an extremely special guest here. It's actually one of my clients her name's Anna and Anna. She's been with us for quite a few months now, and she has a good amount to say in regards to some of the experiences around what we call long coven something that I think from a personal standpoint, she knows that she knows this almost better than I do, but I was able to at least Segway and be able to formulate a plan that was very objective. It was very controlled. And it starts to yield some predictable results. Anna welcome in. And how are you today? Thank you. I'm doing really well today. Perfect. Anna, do you mind just sharing? First of all, before we dive into the diagnoses of things, and we'll talk a lot about long COVID, I'd like to just share a little bit about your background, like what you do, what you enjoy doing and a little about yourself. Yeah. I am originally from Texas from the Houston area and I came here for grad school and so here as in, I'm from, I live in the Washington DC area and I came in for grad school and then I ended up staying here working for the government. I have a background in theater and I switched from theater to political science in college. And then, one thing after another, and I studied abroad and did a lot of different, a lot of different things. And I ended up working in in the Washington DC area. So that's how I got here. And besides work and besides my professional life I really. Enjoy cooking and hiking and and just spending time with my family and friends. Perfect. Said. Said. Great introduction. So let's talk about, how we started going about this. Obviously, I think when we first met people, if people don't know, I have a Facebook group. I have Instagram. And I think that initially when we connected, this was maybe even a couple of years ago. It was just, life was busy. I can tell life is busy. We were just in conversations and, then nonetheless, we got reconnected because you were having more severe symptoms ever since the pandemic happened. So do you mind just sharing a little bit about that background? So like what sort of happened, how when did you get COVID and what were some of the symptoms associated with it? Yeah, so my journey really began 2. 5 years ago. So it's been a little bit over 30 months. I had my first COVID infection in April 2022. And then I had another COVID infection December 2022. So 2 in the same year, but the symptoms started right after the 1st infection. When I had COVID the first time it was really severe. I went to the ER twice for shortness of breath and I had, I just felt super, super sick during the each infection and really struggled in the recovery process. I know a lot of people have a hard time recovering, but it was really debilitating and the symptoms from COVID just never went away. It started in April, 2022. But it really was I break down my my journey into kind of 2 parts which is 1 is like the 1st year of really figuring out what was wrong with me or and a lot of doctors in the beginning told me. The fatigue the things that you're experiencing are going to go away. People, it takes time, maybe a couple of months. And so the, really the first year for me was just feeling awful really awful, and then getting, then my symptoms getting worse. And then the second year was really me. And I'd been trying to get help this whole time, but the second year was really much more focused. I was able to find a lot more of the care that I needed. And that kind of, led me up to where I am today. And. So in the beginning I, like I said, the infection was very serious. I was vaccinated and boosted at the time. And when I was, when I got COVID in April 22, the, they had just started giving a lot of People access to pax love it. So I took that as well. So I did everything at the time that medicine was allowing. And I had a lot of the normal symptoms like muscle aches and joint pain, but the problem was that it extended for years after the initial infection. So I would have the debilitating muscle aches and joint pain. So I say, I categorize it this way. If, if you had an active code infection or you had a flu or really severe fever, the aches and pains could be like a seven, eight, or nine on the pain scale level. Mine was definitely that during the infection, but then after it could fluctuate anywhere from two to three to seven, eight, or nine, depending on how active my body was, what I was doing, if I was stressed, if I was doing A lot of things around the house or whatever. And I had a lot of the muscle aches and joint pain. I had this debilitating fatigue that you just couldn't shake. It was like being woken up in the middle of the night, like mid REM sleep. And there's nothing you can do. No amount of caffeine, no amount of rest that can you can, that can work through that kind of fatigue. It was just. Overarching every day that kind of exhaustion and then had a lot of other symptoms to like post exertional malaise where I would get this, the combination of the fatigue and then the muscle aches either 24 hours or 48 hours after a period of activity. And sometimes that activity, the post exertional malaise would be would make me bedridden either for days, or I would have to suffer for like a flare up for maybe a week or 2, even at most other things that kind of came and went throughout the 1st, 2 years was nausea. So just have a lot of morning sickness all the time and food aversion. So I was just having all these weird things. I just didn't want to eat or felt nauseous. Even just smelling it or seeing it or trying to eat it. And then naturally from a lot of the pain that I was having I had insomnia because I couldn't fall asleep or I had trouble staying asleep from the pain. And if I did fall asleep, and I slept and I often did somewhere between 9 and 10, 11 hours. None of the symptoms got better, even consistently sleeping 10 hours. I would still have that debilitating fatigue where if I went to work some days, I had to leave early because I would be worried about not being able to drive home. I would be so exhausted and tired. Those were the bigger symptoms that I really struggled with in the 1st in, in the 1st, 2 years. And so in the 1st year, after my coven infections, the 1st and the 2nd I just kept trying to live life like normal before coven. And before coven, I loved hiking. I was like, on a trail every other weekend somewhere. I had a history of asthma. It was really well under controlled to the point where all my inhalers were expired. When I first got coven I love traveling. I traveled a lot. I studied abroad multiple times to research in China. I just love, going to new places and doing things that are adventurous and new. So post COVID I thought, I, I scaled things down in my life, but I just tried to continue working full time. I tried to live like a normal 20 something would, and the pain just was, didn't get any better at all. The symptoms actually got worse after my second infection, and I really felt like I was just dying and nobody could answer any questions by the time that I realized after the first couple months that these symptoms weren't going away, I was seeking medical help. I was trying to get into the long COVID centers, but a lot of them by that point towards the end of 2022. They were a lot of long COVID centers and long COVID clinics were shutting down. So a lot of them, you couldn't access. I couldn't call or reach anybody in their offices or the physicians that were heading the programs were no longer working on the programs. So I couldn't find anybody. In the Washington, D. C. area. And then something else on top of that is even if there was access in, within a few hours of the, of my, of driving distance I couldn't drive that far. I couldn't drive more than 30 minutes at a time without having 7, 8 level pain in my body. In my arms in my shoulders just from driving. So it was really limiting and it really challenging because then the specialists that I could, that I was getting referred to, and I was seeing a lot of them gaslit me in a sense. And I don't think any of it was intentional, but it's very common in, in for long COVID patients that because the illness is so new a lot of people that a lot of physicians didn't know what. How to treat the symptoms or how to treat the patient. So a lot of them told me just try exercising. A lot of them told me actually, 1 1 rheumatologist told me that they didn't believe in long coven. And so I just had a lot of these really negative experiences with professionals or professionals saying, yeah, even if I ordered this test for you, I. Don't know what to do with it. It, if you want cutting edge care, you should try the Cleveland clinic or something. Like it was just not helpful at all. And so by that point, I was well into 2023 about a year into being the sick and it just it got to a point where it was really unbearable. And I. My family, like I said, is in Houston area. So I actually went back and on a whim, just I saw that the Houston had a long COVID clinic under the UT health system and I got into the program and from the first moment that they called me to my first appointment to, and I've been with that clinic for you For a year and a half now they were so validating and they were so at the forefront of the research that was happening that they knew how to provide resources and they knew how to help in in, in many ways. So I remember and I found them in April of 2023 and they. I remember after my first two appointments, I I left the clinic crying because I felt so validated that finally, none of these physicians here were questioning whether or not I was actually in pain or saying that it's all in my head or that I should just, I'm just deconditioned. You should just try exercising when. Any form of exercise at that point could make me bedridden. They were, it was a godsend of having, finding the Houston clinic. And and then after that I felt confident enough and I, and having the resources and the help from the clinic take a full time medical leave of absence. And I took about 4 months off from work and went back to Texas, went back to Houston and got a lot of medical treatment, some experimental things like enhanced external counter pulsation therapy, in EEC, that's called EECP. I did a lot of acupuncture. I did a pulmonary rehabilitation and water aquatic therapy as well. So I spent those four months yes, in a lot of therapy on and off, but also a lot of time just resting. And I say doing nothing but it just means like sleeping a lot, resting a lot, and really and for me, it was like, I prayed a lot and spent a lot of time just resting and recuperating in that sense. And my parents fed me really well, and I was just really taken care of by my family during that period of time. So then, since medical leave, I came back in. I came back to the Washington D. C. area in late November of 2023. and since then, I have been working part time and it was really challenging just kind. Just getting back into the groove of things because I have to work in person. So it's been, it's like a different challenge having to go into work than if, I was working from home. I've been part time since then. And a lot of improvement in the last six months has really been working with with you and in the Pain Free Academy and all of the resources that I have received from the program as well as the discipline and the habits that I've really implemented. And I think a lot of times, I know a lot of people. I say a lot of people because I'm part of several online support groups for a long COVID patients. There's a lot of despair on there. At some points of my recovery was extremely encouraging and helpful. And then there's a lot of people that have success stories. And it usually, Comes with time as well. And for me the I think I, when we started working together in April of this year I was at the 2 year mark. And I think since started working together it has a lot of the. Pain and the debilitation and including my endurance to be able to do normal activities of daily living have increased a lot. And it's so much so that actually next week, I am back to full time work. And. Really excited because one, it's a testament to how much I've recovered, but it is, has also been such a long journey. And I will say to the biggest difference from last year to this year. And since the beginning of my long hover journey is that, the pain has decreased a lot. So the pain in my muscles in my in my joints were before I left for medical leave last summer, I was taking a prescription pain medication every day just for management. I was in so much pain every day doing literally anything that's, that was just what was needed. And will say, I, now I barely ever anymore take the pain medication. And it's just been a world of a difference. And even my I've had, I had a lot of brain Fog as well. And that has cleared up a lot and I just feel so much better. Since sin then. So I, that's really the, like the two and a half years in a nutshell. I have a lot of, different stories and things as well that we can talk about. But that's been my journey the last two and a half years with long COVID. Yeah, for sure. So when you're looking at the term long COVID, it can't be understated, like how long, how debilitating it can be for a good amount of people, obviously you had a lot to say for our audience. Cause. For some of some people out there that are struggling with long COVID is you can see that the vast majority of physicians, physical therapists, and other people are not necessarily adequately equipped to handle this. And it's one of those types of diagnoses that are oftentimes like overlooked. Sometimes they're again, they're not validated, right? It's people that are given like fibromyalgia that's oftentimes this. This kind of this diagnoses that's okay if we don't know what's going on and it's this widespread pain and they're a woman and they're, for example, stressed out, let's give them the term fibromyalgia. And I think if I'm not mistaken, were you not given. That type of diagnoses or Oh, it could be this. I wasn't exactly sure. I know that it wasn't necessarily valid. It was just like this very arbitrary type of diagnoses that they're throwing you, right? So most of them were actually, I don't know, or they look or things were coming back to normal. So I didn't have any autoimmune diseases. Thank goodness. I know a lot of people with long COVID, they, it triggers autoimmune diseases. And I've talked to other long COVID, patients that have that it's, triggers certain things in their immune system, but I didn't have any of those. I they said some doctors said, the symptoms look very similar to fibromyalgia, but there's the other markers aren't, nothing is nothing indicates that it is. I was very fortunate. From the beginning to have a really good primary care. And she put it in the system from the beginning as post acute COVID 19 sequelae. So it was like the official diagnosis. And so fortunately that actually she was one of the few providers in this area that believed in me from the beginning and I supported Has supported me through, through all of it, including taking leave to Houston. But yeah they just didn't have a diagnosis. And when they, when the panels and tests came back normal, they just were like, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe try this specialist. Or just try exercising. Like that was a common one that I got as well. You've, You were following me for a little bit and we had some kind of good rapport and some good talks back in the day. And this was, I think this was even before you were even diagnosed with COVID and you, you even had some skepticism about things like, Hey, like I can see you exercise a ton. I can see that you put strength training and you took a very active and holistic scope. So I think what appealed to you was like, Oh, it's taking a more holistic scope, addressing nutrition and everything. You also still had your skepticism had on because you're like, okay, look at you working out five, six, seven days a week. And what makes you think that I would be even like a good fit for this? Like, why how would you even think that you can help me if. So much of what I've done already and people saying, I need to exercise triggers my Pam triggers the, and what were some of the things that kind of encourage you to potentially consider doing this, even despite you saying okay, there's going to be a considerable amount of exercise involved. I think your last, the last part of your question cut out if you, yeah, it was more so based on the fact that obviously I, I exercise a lot and one of my things that I always say is empower yourself to fix your own pains and it's an active approach. Part of the big pillars is doing some form of exercise, strength, training, mobility, and in your head, you're like, okay I can easily be triggered pretty dang fast. But what kind of still pushed you over the edge to pursue some of this and to get, accountability, support and some programming, I had followed you on social media since we started talking in the a couple of years ago and really because I had this long standing chronic neck pain and it is, exacerbated by office and desk computer work. And so I followed you. I just really liked how enthusiastic and how empowering your your approach was to begin with. And then I didn't think about you at all. The first two years while I was sick. But when we started when we started talking about me being part of the program I, like you said, I was skeptical and we talked about this as well. Because I'd been through so many, this I was a dancer growing up and I had I was very active in theater. So I had. A lot of experience in physical therapy and very positive experiences doing physical therapy before I was sick. And then when I was sick, this was, this is my fourth like physical therapy program. One of them I was in for four months and they discharged me because we couldn't do anything. Everything was triggering PEM. And what really put me in, into the, which really pushed me over the edge for joining the program was, like I said, your holistic approach. But also your your story of, your background, your motivation your faith in and how. Like I said, like you've said many times in your program to the difference between empowering and being the one responsible and able to fix your pain and and that whole that holistic as well as that really special and unique approach to habits and lifestyle. And and really, if the, those are really the only, long lasting ways to approach health and fitness. And so those are things that, I knew in the back of my head, but I didn't really understand how. That could be applied to where I was. But I knew that I needed a different kind of care and normal physical therapy wouldn't cut it. And and then we really you let me try for about a month or two months And we started so slow and I remember I was just giving an email update to a lot of my church community recently. And I had said that I started with no weights. We were just doing really basic, just movements and just like simple things. Can I just Barely just squat, but not really on my, and with assistance. And so doing those and starting now, I am like lifting 25, 30 pounds in, in one arm. So I just like I saw, even though we started really slowly the first few months, that minimal, that the little bit of effort that I was able to put in, The end and you're in the holistic approach to maximizing my nutrition, maximizing my protein, making sure that I am doing everything possible to To strengthen and build the endurance in my muscles back. That, that really showed me the possibility. And I remember like talking to my mom at the end of the two months while I was considering, I do, I want to keep going with the program. Do we, what what does what does my recovery and therapy look like in the next couple of months? And, I thought to myself, I was like, this is going to be so worth it. Like when I am climbing on top of a mountain and thinking about how far I'll be able to, I'll be able to come. And I think just the little, the progress the big progress over time is so hard to see. But I think in the first two months, having done the program and then looking back and going, Oh, like this is. So much further than anything that I've done so far has allowed me to progress. So I think just seeing for myself and earnestly doing the program and getting the education and going through the modules and then work in showing up for the calls and working with you. I think that has made I think, the results speak for themselves. Yeah, that's really why I think I saw the progress in the beginning. And was this is felt the difference already, even though it's virtual, which I had some, it yeah, I, the progress I was able to make, even in the beginning, it was way more because in previous PT, it was just a cyclical cycle of I would go once or twice a week. We would try these exercises and then I would be triggered and I would flare up for multiple days then I could maybe try a few of those same exercises at a, a scaled down version of it. And then by the time I'm back in the office, we do something else triggers me. I'm flare up. And then it's just over and over again. Then we do less and less to the point where I wasn't even doing anything. Yeah. Making no progress for sure. Yeah. And I want to appreciate just everything that you said. I valued all the times and clinics and other places that I've been to. And then I started my online program and I've always predicated a lot of my work and I'm proud of this too. A lot of my work has been previously people have not known by I was a math major before I became physical therapy. So what I really value is. numbers and making things more objective. That's one of the things I teach to my clients a lot is when you have pain can be very emotional. So therefore it clouds our decisions. It also makes things less objective because we're just thinking about our pain currently. So you might regress too much. Some people they're like let me just push through the pain completely. And then they don't really have an objective sense of like how to get there. So there's two words that I would use. That come to mind. And I already had these words anticipated before we got here. Cause the way that I was able to approach yours I would have approached a couple people's programs like this, but your program is extremely controlled. It was like a small dial that I would just like tap with my finger kind of thing. Like just literally just tap the dial a little bit further and further. And those two words that I want to say for anybody that's also dealing with long COVID is minimal effective dose, and also understanding baseline. If you don't have a baseline of someone's strength and mobility, you can easily just flare them up. And this is classically the thing that is done in PT. Somebody are given exercises like rows or squats, and they're all great exercises, but they're given three sets of 10. And there's the same exact protocol without really getting critical about what is, where's your baseline and what is the actual minimal effective dose that will enable that client or that person to actually see a positive response. And so we had to dial it back a little bit and dial it forward. But over time, once we like really got connected, you came to all of my calls were like, You're going to move this needle to two reps forward. You're going to move this one to so forth. Now you're going to hold this isometric for 20, 20 seconds, not 10 seconds, right? And so all these different dials that we played with, I think was the biggest difference from a clinical standpoint. But I think that as you could start to see that we were like extremely controlled with things, it gave you more certainty and give you a little more confidence. Okay. We're doing things in such a controlled manner, but as long as we keep pushing forward, this is where we're at six months later, right? Lifting 25, 30 pounds versus we were barely lifting gravity, if you will. Yeah. Just my arm, my own arm. Yeah. Yeah. Just from an emotional standpoint, I feel we're still making great progress and I know you'll continue to make great progress, but what has been the, like the biggest. Emotional win for you from like where you started, back in, I believe, April or May to where you're in health. The biggest emotional win is I think just having more hope in my ability to get my life back. And that's something we talked about, for my goals starting the program was, what do I want to get out of it? I want to, how do I want to live? And for me, when you asked me earlier this year, even what do I see myself doing next year? Or what do I see myself? What are my some like physical goals that I had? And I loved hiking so much before. And I loved being really active and being and doing activities like like cooking for my friends, cooking for my family. Playing guitar, playing piano, singing and and those seemed so unachievable. Because I couldn't even cut an apple, like cutting an apple, my hands would ache for hours after cutting just something as simple as an apple. So let alone cooking a whole meal seemed impossible and Washing my hair was really hard and I couldn't, I can't do the laundry and wash my hair on the same day. I just so many things that in my daily life that were impacted by this by long COVID that doing the things that I loved seemed so impossible. And so when we started seeing progress, when. The little the little bit of effort that I put in every day amounted to so much progress over time. I just felt like I could I didn't feel like it was impossible anymore. I felt like I will get there as opposed to if I get there, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that, that hope is real. We oftentimes we'll put hope into something that we oftentimes don't really see like light at the end of the tunnel. And sometimes we just take like a leap of faith. But that's why, what, where we started was how calculated can we be to the point where, you know, 30 to 45, even 60 days in, you feel some glimmer of hope, like it shouldn't be that 30, 45, 60 days in, you're still getting like Tons of PEM, you're getting tons of malice, right? There had to be some like real and tangible results as a for that. And, I want to let people know that it's not easy to recover from long COVID. I know that there's still people out there that continue to suffer with various malleus symptoms with various respiratory issues. They're still just doing a ton of bed rest and thinking OK, as long as I rest more, that that's what's going to help me the most. But in the grand scheme of things, when we started to, when we set the expectations. About what you needed to do, right? Cause I was like, I always say this to people this is an online program. So therefore I am not moving your arms and legs for you. I'm not doing that. I'm also not massaging you right. That is impossible through zoom. So it is literally, you are the, you're in control of everything that you do. So you're either going to. Break yourself or you're going to make yourself right and as long as you come, and take massive action and do the work You know, you're going to get those results. My question to you is what sort of emphasis did we put on habits and lifestyle, right? What sort of emphasis did we put towards that? How do you feel like habits and lifestyle change? Has helped you the most. And then number two, for somebody that it does have whether it's long COVID or some sort of issues, and let's say they're not willing to change your lifestyle. What would you say to that specific person when it comes to these chronic symptoms and which they have to make massive changes, but they're not willing to actually do the work. What would you say to that person? Habits and lifestyle, I think are the foundations of. Improving and like you talk about right now longevity and living the life that we want to live. And my, my mom tells me all this all the time is your health is the most important because without it, if you're not well. You can't do anything. Yeah, sure. You have all these ambitions and you're so talented. You're so smart. You can do all these things and have all these opportunities, but it means absolutely nothing if you're not healthy and you're at unwell, and so I think what that what the. The habits do for us is to is building that discipline to do what's good for ourselves. Because it's really easy when you're couch potatoing or not moving to, have no motivation and to not want to get up and go to bed earlier or do your mobility exercises or do your workouts. And I think by building the habits into your life just like I. And you, we talk about this in the module, like automating these things, right? Just like automatically brush your teeth every morning. Like I, or automatically, if I have to use the restroom, I go to the restroom. Or if I'm thirsty, I drink water. All these things that we just. Automate we build we do the same with the things that make us more mobile. The things that are good for us. The things that strengthen us. And so I think it's a it's foundational. I think having. These habits and and doing all of those things that are good for us, but maybe we don't feel like it, but if we, if it's automated I don't feel like brushing my teeth some nights, but I still do it because I, hygiene and health is important. So same kind of mentality towards these things. And for those that are, really struggling, whether it's another, it's a different chronic illness or some chronic, other chronic chronic pain or what have you. I think it's 1, it's really easy to be skeptical. If you've had like myself to have had. Really negative experiences with medical care providers or therapists. I think it's really easy to be skeptical and and the other thing is, I think what I would say is that I would ask the same questions that you ask often, right? It's like how do you want to live your life? And how do you want to Get to your goals and how and in the life that you want. And I think for me, it was a no brainer in terms of how much pain I was in and how debilitating it was. And I, and How crappy and how awful everything, how awful I felt every single day waking up and trying to do the bare minimum and still feeling feeling terrible and in pain and unable to participate in In the in life, and it really sucks because being in my 20s and not being able to go hiking with my friends or go out, and and do activities and go and do things that I used to be able to do. I think that sucks. And I think if someone is struggling with. Getting on board and making life changes for their chronic pain, I would say to do it for yourself. And for, people around you, your family and your friends and your loved ones. Because I know that if I'm doing better my family will be doing better to, they'll be happier for me as well. So I, Yeah I think it's I think I, I get it. It's really hard. It's not easy, but the most rewarding things in life are not. Yeah said. So what you're saying is lifestyle and habit change. It's foundational. It's not optional. Yeah, it is. Yeah. You hit it around the nose that, we oftentimes take for granted our bodies is our temple is the place that we live in all day, every day. We, when we're talking about things that we buy in life, no, like we, we sometimes take loans on houses. We take loans on cars, money that we don't have. And we'll put a lot of emphasis. We put a lot of our finances towards those things and people fail to realize that, okay, our body is just as worth it. If not more, because it is the legit, the one thing that we're in 24, seven, seven days a week till our very last breath. So I find that. When people are looking at, it's being more stingy with their health. It's quite frankly, it hurts me because they're taking their health for granted until something really bad happens, whether it's a stroke or whether it's a heart attack. And I think that, investing not just time wise, but investing the finances into your health so that you can do the things you want to do with the people that matter most to you. I think I can't state that enough. And, if you are someone that's also looking for quick, quick solutions. It's not it's definitely not quick in order to change your habits because we have so many negative ones that we built up. I can think of like my, my daughter and my son who they don't they haven't even lived enough life to develop that habits. But we know we as 20 some 30, 40 years old, whoever's watching right now, we've accumulated enough time in life where we've developed such bad habits that have made our posture horrible. And it's our, it's made our back stiff. And it's not until we actually start to notice like extreme symptoms before we actually try to make those changes. Now with you alert. Now, going back in time, if, I don't know if let's say two years back, we're even thinking about lifestyle change, we're even thinking about habits and behavior or is this something that like, since us starting together, is this something that's been relatively new the past five, six months? Or is this something that you've you've always had in mind? Yeah. In regards to like, when you first got covid till now, as in these lifestyle changes as well. Yeah. Were you thinking about this like a couple of years back? And, if you were, what were some things that you were or if you weren't, What were some of the ways that you're trying to go about it? Were you looking for quick solutions or what were you trying to think about? I think generally before COVID and even a couple of years back, I was pretty health conscious. Like I think I had the general knowledge, like nutritional knowledge and and and In a general sense of oh like of activity and wanting to do those things. And I worked toward them. So I feel like I was pretty active before generally just of course not in the way that I care about it now and focus on it now. But I was very conscious of that. Before, because I had a background in theater and I had a background in, in advance. And so a lot of throughout my life, I think more than the average person I had the knowledge and training because that's what we would do in, in, in the performing arts world was. Was you were the product and you were so so it was very important that you took care of yourself. So those are really ingrained in my family as well. They are very health conscious as well. It's something that I think is I've always been interested in and strived for, but I don't think I 1 valued it as much. And I think I can speak for all my peers in their 20s. I don't, we don't value our health the way that we do until you're sick, or until something drastic happens, or someone, and. Pass away from something that that is like health, that is health related and, something that's health related and someone's young and and I think that there were a lot of I think there were just a lot of ways that I didn't know how to or the impact, something as simple as, getting enough protein and what it would have on recovery and my body, because I didn't really reg, I didn't regularly strength train before I wore just danced a lot. And that wasn't, it wasn't something that I focused a lot on. I was always conscious of it, but I don't think that I was. Or learned or built those habits consistently to see the results that would for, moving forward now I would I, don't need to, or even feel like I want to slack on or do differently. In hindsight, I. Was always interested, but I don't think that unless I was as sick as I was, that it would push me to a point where I was more than willing to do anything so that I could get better. Yeah I know that the research that I've read on as far as, and you can flip this in inverse and look at the research, but the research does show that. Regular strength training of at least three to five days a week has been shown to decrease not just the symptoms but also the severity and the duration of COVID. So I, as far as my background, we, me and my friends were all at a at I think a Memorial day party and there was one person that had COVID right. So every single person in that room and in the place we all got COVID and, the vast majority of people. For some of those, it was somewhat associated. And like some of them that they had a poor diet, they were, they're not in good shape, not in good health. They were people that you knew didn't take care of their health. Took them, weeks, sometimes months. To get back from and for me, I also got coven and, thankfully enough, like it was pretty bad the first day. I had a fever. Even just going outside. I can like, hardly breathe. This was like air being blown into my throat. It was like, I would just cough immediately. It was really bad. But it took me 2. 5 days. In order to recover fully. Using that towards those that may again, have longer COVID type symptoms is that strength training does have to be at the forefront for the vast majority of people. And I think Anna, you also realize that as well. That strength training amongst the many things we've done along with a good nutrition that, that can really be like the absolute biggest difference maker. You can't just do strength training without the nutrition hence and also vice versa. You're now what lifting 25, 30 pounds in the gym. And I think that's fantastic. I forget what number of workouts you've. Accumulated or completed in the past six months. Is it over 400, 500? I can't remember. Maybe it's in the hundreds for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that, you're looking at that type, that, that type of not just that type of feeling of checking out the boxes, but just feeling absolutely. Like a complete person again, when you're completing your strength workouts, things are laid out for you. And you're starting to see, the results as far as your capacity, your ability to do things. Now you're going back to work full time. The likelihood is, we probably be doing some sort of. Long hike at some point. And I'm not sure if you have the the mental confidence yet to do or do you like, as far as some of our longer term goals where do you feel like you're at now? And have your goals changed at all? And do you feel, confident enough to get back into some of those things. So my goals haven't changed. I think the difference is me getting closer to them and noticeably closer. And I don't think I have the endurance yet. Cause that's something we talked about in our, in my program as well, in terms of getting the ability. The walk longer distances and get that endurance back. And that I know is takes time to build up as well. I feel much more confident in the ability to get there. And even when I've had setbacks in the last. Six months working with you one. It's great because I have direct access to you. I can get the support from from you and your team and felt, feel like, oh, I'm not on my own. And then even being able to have a plan coming back after being sick was so helpful because it's easy to just be like, oh, this is a total setback months of work, all just down the drain, but it wasn't. And it was so much easier to. Back to where I was before I was sick. So I think I feel so much more confident in my ability to get my life back and and do the things that I want to do. And I will say I was I was thinking about this too, is that the approach is so different and I have. Read a million anecdotal stories on the long COVID support pages, and I have posted a lot of my own experiences and commented a lot of people and talk to people that I do know that have long COVID and there, I know there isn't a one size fit all situation. I don't think that, it's, everyone can just start where I was either or and maybe others are not as debilitated or others are. And so I think everyone, while everyone's in a different journey, I do think that the way that your approach was and something that we talked about in the beginning was, I'm not like any like other patients recovering from an injury, right? I'm not I'm, I just, I, My everything in my body functions differently. And like the long COVID studies on endothelial damage and a lot of like cardiovascular related issues, micro clotting, all of those things that would impact someone's response to normal exercise. I just did not have that. And your approach to. And you're adjusted approach, right? That's different from someone who's recovering from knee surgery or back pain or something like that. It was so important. And I think that a lot of the PTs I had worked with were not equipped to do that or we're not. Able to provide that kind of difference in my therapy. And so I needed you to work with me where I was. And and I think your experience also working with chronic fatigue patients also really helps because it's a similar approach. And I think that's really important aspect of Why the program really helped me and and I had the support that I needed. And I, and and that made a really big difference. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that too, is when it comes to support relative to, standard physical therapy, which is, it's a clinic you show up there. And I would say from my standpoint, I can only speak from my standpoint when I was working at. A large HMO clinic it was pretty tough. Like I remember there was one thing that really set me off in which I was saying I think I need to quit this job. And it was they forced six evals evaluations onto my schedule. And then not on top of that, then I had nine revisits. So it's a total of 15 to 16 patients that I needed to say, see within an eight to nine hour span. And I remember specifically like my last client around like 4 PM I was dead tired, and then I completely called her the wrong name. And she was like, I'm sorry, what'd you call me? And I was like, okay, this is a point where I'm suffering just as much as the patient in front of me. And I needed to make changes. And the way I've tried to make and predicate my program and this type of support I give is through all these different mediums. Do you feel that, outside of, good expert controlled, titration of exercise and progressions and making all the ongoing modifications What can you say about the type of support that I think most people should get? Or even from your personal experience, what support did you get? And do you feel like that's the type of support that people need, especially when they're dealing with some sort of chronic debilitating condition? Yeah, I absolutely, I think The level of care that someone needs for something that is not, there's no established protocol for, they're working on it, right? There's a lot of programs that are working on. Hey, how do we treat these chronic fatigue syndrome and long code patients? And they're completely different. But, other apples and oranges to our normal patients and what we know and I know a lot of therapists are working on. I know a lot of physicians are working on that. In the approach for what I needed was these was weekly calls. And and access to being able to. Email and message you in the program and say, Hey this is not working. Or am I doing this right? Or this flared me up a lot. I don't know what to do next. Cause I didn't go to PT school. I don't, I'm not, I didn't study medicine. I don't know like how to modify in the way that you would. And so having that just extra access and Extra focus, on on modifying the program and how to work through a lot of the flare ups and challenges and the pain that I had is not something that our normal programs when, you schedule, you're scheduled for these days of the week. And I know the PT is overwhelmed with on their schedule and you barely get any. Time with them to talk through the program, let alone be able to have the kind of conversations we have in our weekly weekly calls, just going through the program, even line by line or specific exercises and things. I just, there isn't that opportunity in our normal PT system. And I think for a lot of the regular. Issues like, like recovery from a sprain or something, a lot of those are pretty cookie cutter and they're, they, that it works and it's, it's helpful. And I've been through a lot of programs that helps me a lot and and things that I, exercises I could still use when I needed to and things like that. But for something as challenging and as debilitating as long code for me. I needed that support. I needed your access. And then and then on top of that, I had the education aspect it was parallel to working with you. And and it's really cool. Cause you have a lot of you'll have a lot of channels where you know, like your podcast and you make videos and different things on social media that also is just educational. And I just have a lot of avenues of gaining knowledge and just. Drinking from a fire hose actually in the beginning was felt like getting all of that. The learning about nutrition science, right? Things that I and exercise science and all these things that were. That only helped in the same, at the same time, while I was working with you, but I think that care that specialized care was the most important and most different different than the other programs. That is what someone like me needed. That was more, that. That gave me the support that I needed, especially getting off the ground in the first couple months. There's 2 points that I want to pick out of you have great answers, by the way. And every answer is a solid 1 and the 2 things I want to pick out as 1, a lot of people with chronic conditions feel, they're 1 of the 1 of the. Kind of like long term effects of having a chronic condition that feels unsolvable is feeling socially isolated, right? Not having that support. So oftentimes it feels like you're treading through this alone. You're treading through mud. It's unusually slow. Sometimes you sink once in a while. And then, yeah, when you're asking for support, it's yeah, you're either getting support from people that don't feel like they want to support you, or sometimes they can't because of the system that they're in. You could go to your parents and uncles and aunties, but all. At the same time, it's really just at the end of the day it's that emotional support. It's a hug, but it's not actual, it's not actual expert things that are actually need to afford for that specific condition. So I just want anybody that has had any conditions longer than six months, or maybe you are feeling long term effects of just depression, anxiety, or social isolation, just understand that. I think in standard rehab, it oftentimes can feel like that. Like you're just doing it alone. You report to that specific person, that authority figure, that doctor, that orthopedic, whoever that is. And it just feels like it's just you. And I want you to understand that's what I've really prided my program on is it's just giving people support from so many different avenues and even like weekly, or even if you need it daily, to be honest, it'd be like, Hey, if Anna struggling, I'm going to support you literally daily. And you can message me and voice note me anytime you want. I want people to understand that's the type of support that I truly want to give and that. Even if I continue to gain dozens, if not hundreds of clients, it's probably still going to stay in the same way. I'm just going to, hire more people like myself and to get people on the road. The last and final point that I want to give, and then I'll leave Anna with the last note, is I'm glad that you really admitted that, a lot of people think otherwise in terms of the progress that they would make in a program. They have these kind of false expectations oh yeah, once I joined a program, and this program is not, it's not as cheap as like a typical copay, but Oh yeah, if I go join this program, it has to deliver results. Like every single week I have to make progress every single week is going to be like an easy trajectory towards my goals. And I'm glad that you said it. You're like, there were times where I had repeat flare ups. There were times where I had aches on my bones. And I felt like I was getting set back and I got emotional about it. And want people to hear that. Like when Anna joined this program it wasn't just dandelions and flowers. It was like a lot of just us talking over and over again, and then me giving some emotional support. And then you give me feedback and then I'll get more emotional support. And then it was just this ongoing dialogue that ultimately blossomed into a great relationship. And that flare up gives lessons, right? It's this, these flare ups, while they may feel like they're dragging you down and it's Oh, I was making progress. Then this happened is that you learn from these flare ups and then you learn. And I get to learn from it too. Every person's journey is different. So when you have the flare up, it's a different journey from like somebody had a ankle flare up or a low back flare up, this is. This different entity that's very real to you and that I get to learn from as well. Now with that being said, and I'd is that, when you're looking at these people that have had flare ups over and over again, is that something that you. Have internalized for yourself despite having these flare ups, despite maybe you might have another flare up at some point, how has your mindset changed around the flare ups? I think I don't want to lead into the statement, but people have flare ups, oftentimes tons of emotion, tons of overwhelm. And how do you like how would you handle your flare ups? Or what would you tell somebody that is having those types of things and how you've been handling it? Yeah. So I, Over time, the flare ups have decreased, right? And the frequency and how much the flare ups trigger, like it used to be, I would monitor, I'd heart rate monitor very closely because that was a really good indicator of how much I'm doing or how hard my body is working just to do normal daily activities. And so it used to be where I would have a flare up if my heart rate was over 120. For more than a few minutes in a day, and that's very easy, right? Sometimes just getting getting food from the fridge of the microwave could would pop my heart rate up like over 120. By as we build strength as we, as I built more endurance throughout the program. These, the frequency decreased. And so like you asked me earlier, the biggest thing I've gotten was hope, like the ability to work through the flare ups and the pain. And so while working with you, I was able to come to you during those times and go, I just, my legs hurt so much or aching so much, like what. And you give me not just emotional support, which I need but also the practical recovery, exercises and things that help mitigate and mitigate from, the current pain, but also to prevent that from happening, like doing more of the, of the massaging, like after, right after workouts or the day, the day of things like practical things that really helped. And then the biggest pain the pain relieving aspect of using isometrics that you've taught me has been also a significant part of dealing with flare ups and I think preventing them is when I start getting a little bit of aching, I will automatically, and this is like the One of the biggest changes for me is I just start automatically clenching my fist and doing isometrics. And I, I just know because it's, I use my hands the most the day and and I feel it and I'm doing it all the time. When, as soon as I feel like that aching or whatever, I just start doing it. And some, and even half the time now, I don't even recognize that I'm doing it. It's just so automatic. And I it just for me, those are the ways that I've worked through them, but I will say on the flip side, right? Besides, all the successes and all the things that have, I've gained from the program and in my life, but I get it. And I understand how frustrating the flare ups are. Because even for months on at a time, I felt like it was just a perpetual flare up. And there's a lot of, a lot of like really good articles out there about people's personal firsthand experience of long COVID and how heartbreaking and how awful and how how dark it can be. And I know there are a lot of people, myself included, that have felt really. In a really dark and terrible place because of. The constantness and the incessant pain. And it's like over time how awful that is. And I think any human being when suffering that long is going to feel depressed and is going to have a really hard time when flare ups, because flare ups are the biggest reminder of your pain, of your disease, of your illness, of your debilitation. And it's inevitable. And I think for me, and I'm not, and it's, for me going through the program really helped me work through the hope that I have in being able to work through those flare ups and even bouncing back from flare ups and over time, because it decreased for me, I was able to gain a lot more confidence in working through them. I'm a lot less scared about them now, right? And I know if I have one, I know how to work through it. Or I feel confident in being able to get through that and continue making progress. But when I wasn't in that place and for a long time, I wasn't right. And for almost 2 years, it. It is really depressing and it is really mentally draining and you feel really, you feel a lot of despair and I felt that as well. And so I, I don't want to underestimate to the need for mental health care. I've worked closely with a counselor. I had my family, my friends, my church community and A lot of people that were praying for me, a lot of people that just checked in a lot of people, a lot of my girlfriends helped wash my hair. A lot of them came and helped me. And I think we. When going through the flare ups to never suffer in silence is the biggest is the biggest advice I have. Don't suffer in silence get help in any way that you can, even if it's just emotional, even just mental or even if they're strangers on a support group online don't suffer in silence and and then when you're able and you're processing that feeling of despair and just in the same vein Reach for the next thing that you can try the next thing, the, like some sort of activity or movement or thing that you can do to get better to feel better. And to just not give up. I think that's just really hard. It was a lot easier said than done. But no, I, 1 of the things that Dr Matthew Lynn, who is the long covid specialist in Houston that told me that I really felt encouraged by was you will get better. It is he told me, in 1 of my. One of the one of our appointments that you will get better. It's not an if it's a when and he has someone who perpetual just sees, long COVID patients day in day out. He had the credibility to say that, but also it just was really encouraging. And I for anyone with COVID and for people with chronic diseases, I, I want to say the same thing is that you will get better. It's an, it's a it's a, when not an F and there are, to not give up, there are so many programs. There are so many things that and the, the pain free academy included that are. That can help with those things. So I just, to not give up, I think that's really important. Yeah, not give up. And so definitely I wouldn't say jump wholeheartedly into almost anything, definitely do your due diligence as you probably have. And I was just going to say, when you're talking about support groups, I'm like, I think I'm pretty dang sure that I met you through just a support group. And, look, we're at now, two, three years in the books, we're working together, friends, and Any case, I just want to value your time. And I very much appreciate how candid you were on this. And for anybody that hopefully has resonated with Anna's story or has suffered with some sort of chronic ailments, I just want to let you know that yes, there is hope. Yes, it's not a matter of if, but when. And, as long as you keep fighting you are going to get the results you desire. It's funny enough that when you said, Dr, Dr. Mathilin, I always, I say that too, when I'm talking to people, it's if you. If you work with me, it's not a matter of if you get results, just when, but you have to do things in a calculated manner. You have to stay the course you have to do exactly, the things necessary. You have to learn from our coursework and you got to apply it to your exercises. Any case, I don't know if there's anything I feel like you said so much, but if there's anything else that you want to like, leave with the audience, so we'd love to hear one final message from you. I think one of the biggest things that people don't realize for for chronic illnesses is that it's especially for cases like long cobit, where most of the time they're invisible disabilities and they are unseen. And if you're fortunate enough that you haven't ever experienced anything like this, I would say, you just never know what people are going through. I will say most of most people in that I work with or that I have interactions with don't know. And they, I've been told many times that you look great, and I'm like, great. I feel awful, and I, I just, I think giving grace to other people and being kind to others and because you really don't know what people are going through. And for those suffering with chronic illness and long coven, you're not alone. There are millions of us out there who. Understand and and there is hope and there is help out there. And again, just don't give up. Like it is it will get better. Yeah. And for anybody with long COVID or chronic illnesses, if you're, if somebody were asking you about our program, what would you say? I think absolutely check it out. I am. It has made I, all, everybody who knows me, all my friends and are I often quote you in some form or fashion or talking about discipline or something. And and so they all know about this, like about my amazing physical therapist. I will say, the pain free academy has has really laid the foundation for a lot of lifestyle changes that. Aren't just necessary when I'm unwell, but I am so thankful for you, Dr Jay and for the program for really equipping me to only help me get through long coven. But when I can say that I'm fully recovered and that will be me on some mountain top, and I'll send you a picture when, when that, even after that, I feel so much more confidence and thankfulness for for the life that I have and the life that I can live by, by, Feeling and feeling better. And and yeah, absolutely. Please, for anybody who is on the fence or even feel no matter what level of debilitation you're at to to consider the program because it really has made it a world of a difference for me. Yeah. And yeah, I just want to be, something that my wife has continuously practiced into me. And that's I think how I. We have something that we have this message to me and my wife and every single day. It's just be, every start every single day with gratitude. And one thing that I'm very thankful for our relationships with people like yourself, who, to be frank, I might never meet you in person. I might never meet a lot of my clients in person and it might happen. I might have In person seminars and stuff one day. We'll see if that happens, but in any case I'm just very thankful for you, Anna, you're thankful for the opportunity and the programs and how I've been able to build this. And again, it's just, it's amazing to build these relationships. Seemingly where people felt very skeptical about telehealth and online stuff. I hopefully can break those molds and to say that there's really legit high quality care, from the comfort of your home from almost anywhere. Any case I'm saying that again just thankful for you, Anna, for. What we've been able to build together for the results that you've gotten. And obviously let's keep pushing forward because the journey's not end to get. And that's it for this podcast, everyone. If you have any questions or have any feedback for me or for Anna. Please let us know. You can always text us. We have a business line 415 965 6580. You can also email me at jason@flexwithdoctorjay.Com. And for anybody that is considered our program, we'll lay out some links and you can go ahead and just apply. But I'll leave you with this quote that I always leave every single one of my podcasts. We only have one body, one life, make every action you take be one that makes you a better version of you. Take care everyone. And thank you so much. And I appreciate your time. Thank you.