Chronic Knee Pain Testimonial With Lily Lu || WBWL Ep 105

I had the privilege of working with Lily, who dealt with chronic knee pain and weakness since college. Can’t say it was easy, but with hard work, she overcame wearing knee braces, relying on medication, and most importantly overcame the fear of training her knee.

I’m very happy to have clients like Lily who trusted me and put in the work.

For those that would like to work with us, fill out this application below and apply for our pain relief program!
>>https://go.flexwithdoctorjay.com/apply

Transcript

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All right. Welcome in. I am Dr. Jason Won, a lifestyle physical therapist. As you guys know, I help a lot of people worldwide and also in the San Francisco Bay Area relieve chronic pain, help them get stronger, and also just put them on the right trajectory for better health, especially if pain is not a limiting factor. And today I have the blessing and privilege to get to interview one of my clients. Her name is Lily, and me and Lily have worked with each other for a few sessions, and it's just been a real joy, obviously seeing her grow, seeing her transformation, and then yes. I was honored to, when she said yes, I'd love to be interviewed and to share my experience. So Lily, yeah, just want to thank you for being here and how are you doing today? Thanks. Happy to be here. I am doing great today because I don't have knee pain. I'm glad to hear that. I know that when we, even before we started and we were just like consulting and talking about, I think we've had a few conversations even before we were talking to each other. You've mentioned to me many times that you've had knee issues. We just brushed it off because when we did meet each other, it wasn't like something that's at top of mind during gatherings and all that. But just share with me a little bit about like just. Just that journey that you been on. So before you started working together, paint the picture for our audience of what daily life kinda looked like with this type and knee issue, how it started as well. Do you mind sharing that? Yeah, absolutely. So my knee pain, it's 10 years in the making. I, first, I'm like, we're gonna go down memory lane here. I first felt it in college. I was having a lazy day. My friends and I were just. Marathon binging TV shows and eating pizza on the couch. And my knee started hurting. It was stiff wasn't great, but I ignored it and went to bed. Next day it was gone, so didn't give a second thought to it. And then fast forward to graduation, I got a nine to five job and I sat at a desk all day, five days a week. Like many. Like most people do. And by 3:00 PM each day, my knees started hurting and it was awful. I couldn't really walk on it. And I would get to the gym and once I got like a gym routine going, I felt a little better. But it kept progressing to the point that even if I worked out, even if I was active, it, the pain still kept coming. And eventually it got to a point where. I just felt really anxious about it all the time. If my knee wasn't actively hurting, I was waiting for it to hurt. And like that mental load was just, it was a lot. It was just every day like, all right, when am I gonna be in pain? When am I gonna not be able to walk anymore? So it was pretty rough. I'd carry Advil with me everywhere I go and. I'd worry about things like sitting in a car on a road trip or something, or sitting on the, like in a movie theater for a couple of hours.'cause that sitting position just aggravated my knee a lot. Gotcha. Yeah, I actually dealt with a lot of similar things, which I feel like I told you about, I feel like I was a good athlete my entire life, but, a lot of people, they get pain when they're more active or like they might tear a ligament. And there are some where sometimes it's not during the times that you're active, it's when you're not act, it's when you're not active. So if you're sitting in a car for a long period of time, or a very common thing that we say in, in physical therapy is the theater sign where if your legs are bent at a 90 degree angle, a lot of times, like you can't sit in a theater for a long period of time. So I dealt with it. A lot of that myself. I think that's why I felt actually very confident to work with you because I was like, oh, this is stuff that like, sounds very eerily similar to things that I've faced. And I always try to lead by example in terms of saying that I empathize, but also if there's something that, that I've dealt with myself, I'm more than a thousand percent sure that I can help you. So what were out outside of just main, but like the mental load. Do you mind describing that a little bit more? What did you mean by mental load? Was it more. Fear mongering? Or was it just like I was worried about the future? Can you elaborate on that? Absolutely. Yeah. It was, yeah, day to day I would, I'm like sitting at my desk and I'm like, when's it gonna kick in? Is it now is, should it take an Advil now or should I wait till later? I was also like, it would really upset me like this would. It would make me really emotional thinking about not being able to run after like pets or kids stooping down to pick up my niece and give her a hug or I don't know, I drop something, I need something to pick something off the floor and I wouldn't be able to bend my knee. And it just made me feel like, I'm 32. This has been hurting me since I was about in my twenties. And I'm just thinking can I live the rest of my life like this? Is it gonna get so much worse? Like I was, yeah, I'm like 30 going on like 80. That's how I was feeling. And I'm like, my youth is being taken away from me because I can't do simple things like squatting down running after things and just. Being active. Things that I like doing. I really like hiking or doing yoga and Pilates and even those things like just doing like the warrior pose. It hurt my knee, yeah. Yeah, the knee is just, probably, in my opinion, is the most common ailment in the lower body for some physiologically physiological purposes. For anybody that's listening, I think the knee is most subjected to injury or the stuff that you feel, because the knee is just this one joint between two others and so the knee is just subjected to. Whatever the hip or the ankle wants to do. So whether you are running wrong and like the foot's hitting the pavement wrong, that affects the knee, or a lot of times you're not, if you sit for a long period of time, which is what you did. And what a lot of people do nowadays is that the hip muscles, they either get weak or they get stiff. So that ends up affecting the area down below. Which again is the knee. So that's why the knee is like one in four people in the world. And that's a pretty big percentage. 25% of people in the world will have some sort of knee issue in their lives. A lot of times it does become more chronic. If not solved in the right way. So again, leads me into my next question. I know, Lily, it's been, you've been having this for over a decade and we can definitely dive into the transformation that you had, but it was progressively getting worse until we started doing stuff. So what did you try, what were some of the many avenues, treatments, protocols, and things that you tried? Prior to working with me. And I guess, what were some of your your expectations going into those treatments? Yeah, I've had a ton. Let's see. Before working out with you I was working out on my own. Like I'd go to the gym. I've always been pretty active. I didn't know which exercises were helping me or hurting me. I wasn't sure is walking the right thing to do or running, or should I be doing squats? Should I be lifting heavy? Like what is good for me? And because my knee hurt, I was like, should I stop doing it or should I keep going? I wasn't really sure about any of that. What else should I do? Oh, I had gone to other physical therapists. They gave me exercises. I didn't find'em very helpful. It wasn't, and after a while I wouldn't stay consistent with them. I had been told to get new shoes. I did. That didn't do much for me. I've had two cortisone shots in my knee. Didn't help it. It just numbed the pain for a while. One lasted me two weeks. Pain came right back. One helped for a couple of months and yeah, it didn't. Lessened the pain. It just numbed it for a bit. And then what else did I have? Oh, I had a knee brace for the longest time. I walked around it with a knee brace, so that was another thing I had to carry with me on top of the Advil everywhere I went. Put on a knee brace. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost it feels like you're constantly in a state of protection, right? Mentally, it's you when something hurts, we tend to want to guard it. We tend to protect it. A common narrative that I think that I always try to debunk is if it hurts, don't do anything. So this is commonly the. The thing that your physical therapist would say, this is commonly what your doctor would say and many others. So if an exercise hurts, just stop what you're doing. And I think that always comes, in my opinion, that always comes from a place of fear, right? It's okay, no, pump the brakes. Stop what you're doing, because clearly that's not the right avenue to go. So let's completely turn away from that and do something else. I find that's very. Disempowering not just to you, but to others. So like very commonly, if you were squatting, that's very common that if you're like, oh, if squatting hurts, just don't do it. Do something else, right? Go for a walk. But you fail to realize that you need squatting and. Literally everyday life. So a lot of times it does scar, somebody leaves a permanent imprint. Oh, if squatting's bad for me, I should just not do it. But okay, now you lose the ability to sit on a couch. You lose the ability to sit in a theater, sit onto the toilet, and it hurts every time you sit on the toilet. It's just'cause you don't build into that. So any case I digress in terms of saying there's a lot of mental aspects and a lot of things that we say. Or that a practitioner would say that often leads to very permanent deficits. And it's not your fault, it's just that there's an authoritative figure that said, don't do this, don't do that. And then oftentimes we lead we live in a state of protection. AKA you wear a brace at all times. You carry the medication in your pocket at all times. So I'm very glad that obviously you've unleashed those things. You don't have to carry those things anymore. That's a beautiful thing to see. With that being said, like I know that I am a physical therapist although I feel like I'm a very good one, an orthopedic specialist so mind you sharing like between, I dunno how many PTs you did, like how many bouts of different physical therapists have you seen? Just one or a couple. I. Two, I saw two physical therapists. One, I went just one time. He gave me some exercises and told me to do them. The other one I scheduled like several appointments. I think I went once a month for about six months. Yeah. And then I went to sports medicine, so I didn't, I'm not sure if it was like the exercises or the consistency or whatever it was. Maybe all of it. It just, it didn't really work for me. So maybe we can just delineate that further, if you don't mind me asking, because I think physical therapy obviously has this place That is why I chose this profession and'cause I freaking love it. It gives me a lot of joy when I get to help my clients not just relieve pain, but like even just transform their life and their consistency and their habits. So I don't like the poke bears, in terms of like physical therapy because I think every. Physical therapist, every health practitioner they're usually doing things with the right intention. However, sometimes they're going about it wrong or they're going about things not optimally, which that's why it left you in frustration, so what do you mind me asking what are some of a few things that was different about working with me versus working with some of the other practitioners that you saw? I think something working with you is you pushed like heavy weights. And I didn't, don't scare people by the way. Did. Yeah. Not, it's nothing ridiculous. You start with lighter weight, but we're doing weight training. It's not like you have to start with the heaviest weight ever and you're gonna, it doesn't work. It's just like you start with lower weights or nothing at all, and then you progress week by week. And you really push, every week be better. Whereas I think my old physical therapist was. It was mostly just like using like a very weak band. Actually. You saw the bands that I had. You're like, what is this? Why is this so like flimsy? Yeah, it was like clamshells walking with a band around my eyes things like that. But there was no weight training there, and so it wasn't growing my muscle. I think probably wasn't growing my muscle faster than my body was losing it. I know you, just for background, if it's okay to share it, but I know you had some pretty significant atrophy of the left quad. It was actually very apparent. I didn't have to measure it. It was just like, it was very obvious that I. Right side had a good amount of girth and it had like teardrops. And then the left side literally just, it was like more tubular, right? It's just like much thinner in nature. And not just that, but like also the knee. You lacked extension, right? So you 30, 32 years of age, but you already had a knee that. Lacked significant range of motion. You couldn't lock it out. So those are just a lot of times you give somebody bands and you just strengthen the hip, but you're not addressing like the strength and the resilience of the knee and pushing it. Then a lot of times it stays exactly the same. This is an honest question. If it's okay, and you can be really transparent on this podcast, that's fine. Did you have any, I know considering your previous experiences, did you have any concerns, doubts or uncertainty when I was hey, like saying Hey, let's get the ball rolling. Let's try to work with me. I know you've known me for a while, so kinda get the ball rolling. Was there any, like objections or uncertainties in your head about doing things before we started? Yeah. Yeah. I'm not gonna lie, I was pretty jaded by the time I got to you because I've been living with this for so long. I've tried so many approaches to healing my leg. And I was like, really? Like I don't think my body can just heal itself on exercise alone. Like building up the muscle is gonna stop the pain. They told me it's patellofemoral syndrome. I had, and because of that, it caused inflammation and then I had a cyst and that's, yeah, all this stuff was going on in my knee and I was no way. Just building up the muscle. Stop all that. But it really did like building up the muscle. Made it my joints like, aren't pressing upon each other, causing inflammation, and so the pain's gone away. It's insane. It's magic, it's voodoo. I don't know what this is, but it's science. That's what it's definitely science. There's no magic hands here. I think that it's a lot of times what I always say is that like I. Back in the day when I was 2015, much I think cockier of a therapist and I was like, oh shoot. I have the hands of magic, right? So a lot of my treatment was very manual based. What can I do with my hands? I can crack someone's back and then magically they're off the table. Man, I feel so much better. There is a place for manual therapy. I've definitely switched my practice to past. Six years in terms of just providing knowledge, one of what to do with your symptoms. Number two, like empowering you that you can do this on your own. It's just a matter of just like really implementing it. And then three, it's like teaching you principles around progressive overload and strengthening this issues and making sure that you're not seeing the same. And if you are you know this already Lily, like I called you out and I was like, you're doing exactly the same. You're not progressing, you're not really pushing to contractile failure. So we really demonstrated that. Together, and I think that you obviously have expressed and defined that resilience over time which I'm very happy about. So in terms of. I guess we can go back to maybe in an instance, I remember there was like two, three weeks into us working together. There was a moment where you were like a little bit teary-eyed because you were, I think you were sick, and then you right you fell off for a week and you're like, oh, that's making good progress. And then you fell off because you just weren't going to the gym. And then you got, your mindset kind of started wavering, right? You're like. It's really frustrating. I know I'm only three weeks in, but this won't get better. So do you remember some of the verbiage and some of the conversation around that and do you mind sharing that? Yeah, I remember I got sick around the holidays and yeah, I didn't go to the gym for a bit and my legs started hurting again and I was like, this isn't working out. It's gonna be exactly the same as before the pain. It was just so awful. And to feel like that much despair at such a young age, it's really disheartening. Yeah, you like, you're like, Hey, you just gotta get back on there. You built me some new routines. Hey, you're not feeling up to going to the gym. And we all know if you're sick, don't spread it around. So here's some things you can do at home. Maybe you can't do your full workout, maybe you can't do. You don't have access to all the stuff that you have at the gym, but this is what you can do in the meantime. Don't completely fall off. There's something you can still do to keep you on track. We all take ownership of our health, right? So when we're sick I always try to tell my clients, try to maintain a bare minimum standard. You don't have to do your full routine. You don't even have to do the. The large amount of weight, you don't always have to consistently take things to failure, but at the same time, you gotta keep your body honest, right? You gotta keep it on track. So it's very easy for people to lose. Endurance to lose strength relatively quickly. And it's unfortunate because whatever hire being that made us human is that like we have to work that much harder to get our strength there and it becomes hard. It's like an uphill battle when you're hip that hitting those heavier weights. But it's so easy to fall into complacency and just fall off the wagon and lose a ton of progress. Six months of progress. You lose that in like less than a month, right? So that's why, I think one thing that I try to do that separates my practice is like really keep my clients accountable, really have my voice heard consistently, and to teach you that this is something you do lifelong. This is not physical therapy where you get in, your symptoms are relieved and then you can just go back to your normal lifestyle, right? This does become a part of your lifestyle. And so if I'm. I wouldn't be the best fit for anybody that says, I'm just looking for a quick fix. I'm always looking for people that really want long-term change. So again, very excited that's the trajectory you're on because I know that you will consistently work out and I think it's a beautiful thing. So you highlighted. Before the muscle loss. And that there was some reliance on medication or like anticipating it, taking it beforehand or taking it after. I don't know, were you given anything else outside of medication from your provider and I think there was like the injection and everything yeah. Yeah, new shoes, I actually, yeah, cortisone shots. And then there's also. Knee tape and electric nerve stimulation. They put two little things and then, but I can't do that at home. That's, you go into the clinic and they can do it for you there for 20 minutes, but after that, when am I supposed to do? Did you, I know this is some people they just go through the motions and they just go down that route.'cause they're misinformed. They're just like, oh I need the tense unit because it, it shocks the muscle and it relieves the pain. Was there a time or was there a delay period where you're like, at some point you just came to a realization that I need to change my route of how I'm going about this, or, when did you come to that realization? I guess the first time I did pt I. I only went once didn't go back and I was like, you know what? That's probably on me. I wasn't consistent. I didn't keep up with it. The second time, I was like, no, this is it. I'm gonna fix it. I made all these appointments, made sure I kept up with it. And it's still didn't work after six months, after the cortisone shot like I had. The best doctor who he was awesome did everything he could for me. And I'm like, it still didn't work. And I'm like, I can't live like this. Like it's too early to throw in the towel and just be disabled, not using one of the biggest muscles in my body. So yeah, I was like, I need to try everything. I've tried the knee brace. I've tried, I tried everything. They threw at me. So do you find with the, when you had the when you were having a lot more debilitating knee issues, was it harder for you to just stay present to just be more present with your husband or with your family and do you feel like your ma your mind was constantly like drifting into, like worrying about the future at all? And I'm just gonna get your perspective'cause I've worked with other, a few thousand people over the past six years since starting my business and. A lot of people, as their mindset shifts into different places, they perseverate over what happened in the past. They hate the past. Sometimes they really dwell in the future and then they can't stay present. So I'm just curious on your end about your mindset. I. Oh, definitely. I think the anxiety of it was honestly like such a huge part of it because yeah, not only am I worrying about what's presently gonna happen to me, but I'm worrying about yeah, future. Am I going to be able to, I. Have kids and take care of them properly. Can I take'em to the park and run around? I want a dog. And what if this dog like runs too far and I can't chase after it, yeah. I can't enjoy an evening on the couch just watching TV'cause my leg gonna hurt. I couldn't wear high heels when I went out with friends, things like that. What else was there? I don't know, just like even I'm cooking in the kitchen and there's like a pot at the in the bottom cupboard and I'm like, I have to squat down to go get it. I don't wanna do this. It hurts. It just affected every part of my life. So this has been a huge change for me. For sure. I think I told you a little bit about this, but tho those words when you first said I perseverated about the future, and then you mentioned kids. That was actually how I felt. Your pain started when you were like twenties. I got into a really. Bad car wreck when I was 20, and then also my dad passed away around the same time. So that was a moment in my life where when my dad passed away, and then I had a lot of chronic neck issues because of the mixture of that emotional turmoil of losing a father, but also my issues weren't going away. And so my thoughts were the same thing. It was like, my neck issues are so bad I can't even sit in a car for more than 10 minutes. How do I even expect to have kids? Because I can't carry them. I can't look down for a long period of time. I can't keep them. I, I always dreamt of having my kids on my shoulders for, and watch the parades at Disneyland kind of thing. And I was like, dude, I can't do any of that. And thankfully enough in the same way that you've made your transformation I discovered my own transformation of how powerful it is to. Be strong, right? And strong is actually associated with being pain free. That doesn't match with a lot of people. Like they don't see that connection, but i'm, I think, my, my son I keep my son on my neck for two hours. And'cause he forgets that he has legs. So like I'm carrying him under my arm for many hours in Taiwan that I just went back to. I carry him on my shoulders for two hours straight and I'm proud of that. I can have the capacity to do those things versus I know a lot of people, they accept. Their way of life life riddled with pain. And definitely a big change. May I ask like when, during the times that we were working together, like how fast did you start to notice those kind of initial changes of like positivity and relief and, what do you feel like there were either specific moments or exercises that you felt particularly were like the most impactful? So I think we started working together right before the holidays and I was so excited because I think I. Like a couple weeks after we started working together, I had a few days where I didn't take any medication. And then it lasted a week and I was just like, I think it's been like a month since I've taken any Advil. Which is amazing. Actually, I saw an episode of Grey's Anatomy where a girl took too much Advil, so I think she like died from it. I don't know, it's a TV show, but I was like, I, that can't be me. I don't want that to happen to me. And then when I got sick, yeah, it didn't work out for a couple of weeks and. Advil every day came right back and I was like, oh man, here we are again. But since then, since you've updated my workouts and I know don't slip that far. Don't go that long without working out or just do something. I don't think I've taken Advil like. I don't know, for a couple months now. It's amazing. It's freeing. Did I answer your question? Wait, was there another project? Yeah, definitely. And know were there either one specific'cause I love to teach principles, right? You know that I talk a lot clearly that's why I have a podcast. But I also, I love to teach a lot when I am doing my sessions with people. I also like to think that I provide, the right exercises that really. Inch needle forward a lot could you share maybe either whether it's exercises or principle that you're gonna always live by that you really felt like made a huge difference, especially for your knee issues? Yeah. So the first one I just said, it was just like even if I can't do my workout, I don't have time to do my full workout. You don't have to be perfect. Do something, like every step you take gets you closer to where you wanna be. So if you take no steps, you're gonna stay where you're at or slide backwards. Another thing is to keep pushing myself. I was trying to be perfect. Do perfect. 12 reps before I move on to the next weight. And you're like, no, you're not progressing fast enough. Move on to the next weight even if you don't think you can do it. And yeah, it got me pushing myself way harder than I used to and I saw progress much faster like that. Yeah, I was at the gym this morning and I was. I was doing hamstring curls and I was stoked because I was like, I remember when I did the lightest weight on this, and it was a struggle, and now I'm like doing way more weights than I thought I ever could. I did it with ease and I'm like, it's time to move up and next. Wait. Yeah. Yeah. And do you recall, I think when you were doing we were testing leg extensions as well, right? Yeah. And that was, that's the one that, that you were, I think I almost cried. You were scared to do it. You actually almost, you almost cried when you were like, you're gonna make me do this right now. And I was like, we gotta test for it. We gotta see how you do because. If you never overcome your fears, then you're never gonna do it. Yeah. And I was like, this is gonna be one of the best exercise for you at some point. I don't even know your numbers, but I know you were pretty stoked when we opened up like lateral squats, cosac squats, leg extensions, all became relatively pain-free. Which opened up avenues. So you're like, oh, there's nothing in the gym that I can't do, right? I remember that first morning doing the cosac squat. I couldn't do it like, and I texted you, I think it was like seven o'clock in the morning. I was like. I can't do this. What do I do? And you're like, hold onto something. Support yourself. And I did. And now I have maxed out on the weights that they have at the gym, so that's awesome. That's crazy. So I'm like really happy. I was like, that was my most feared. Exercise, second most feared, and now I, I love doing it. Yeah. Let's, I guess let's talk about fear really quick because that is pain will impact you in many ways. Whether it's like disabling and you can't get back to the activity that you want to do or whether it's causing a lot of mindset issues and it's either feeling a sense of helplessness or fear. Do you feel like. The things that you felt before us working together was the primary thing that really impacted you the most from a mental or physical standpoint? Was it fear or was it like something else? I guess I. Yeah. Fears, it's like pain is obviously like the physical, it's awful. It's there. I have to fix it. My, my knee would get super stiff and I couldn't move and couldn't enjoy life. But giving myself like the mental freedom to stop worrying about it and thinking about it like all hours of the day, it's been really great. Yeah, it's honestly liberating. Yeah. I think you wrote a review and I'm very privileged to have those reviews. Almost like my tattoo. It's it's always gonna be forever imprinted onto my Google page, which is, it's really good because like I can always go back, it's like going back into a memory book, right? So I'll look back at it two years from now and be like, oh shoot. I remember when I worked with Lily, I remember the experience and the great friendship that we developed, during our time working together. One thing, I just wanna break up that review and you mentioned. Quote unquote, the program gave you tools to live without paint. That I was a, one of the ones that taught you about your muscles and how to reawaken them. Can you elaborate on what the learning process was like in terms of what you did the past few months and how ultimately empowered you to take control of your knee health? I. My knee problem was diagnosed as patellofemoral. Didn't know what that meant. Didn't know how to reverse it. It was, they were just like, here, do these exercises. And I'm fairly active. I love doing yoga, lifting weights, doing Pilates, and I. Yeah, I could see my leg shaking. I could see, like when I'm doing down dog and I'm looking at my leg, one side is engaged and one was just there. It was just existing. It was not engaging at all. Or like my leg was shaking and I was like, I don't. I don't know is what I'm doing hurting it or is it helping it? I don't know. So I just like you said earlier, back off go and protect mode and you taught me like, Hey, that, that shaking the muscle's being fatigued, keep going at it, keep pushing it. And when you get it to be stronger, it's not gonna shake like that anymore. So yeah, he taught me like how my muscles work, how they all like they're yeah, how they work together. Yeah, he taught me to push myself. That if I work out with machines, I can't hurt myself. Although you can't, machines will take the front of the heat. Yep, yep. I, I don't need to be afraid of adding on weights because I won't hurt myself. It's just gonna help. Yeah, it's really cool to see how far I've come because you've taught me to push myself and, yeah. Yeah, that's the one of the biggest things is that's why I like to document things. That's why I have an app. That's why I like to look at the numbers and be like, let the numbers speak for itself, right? Because if your numbers aren't going up, that's not a sign of growth and on your end. But also I know on my end that like you, you gotta be. Willing to take the next steps, right? Be willing to add some increment of difficulty in the form of speed or increase your reps by a couple. A lot of times people will get into the mistake that they want to quote unquote maintain muscle mass throughout their life, right? A lot. You hear that all the time, right? Lily? I wanna maintain my muscle mass.'cause I'm thinking about it. I'm 30, usually after the age of 30 you're losing muscle mass. Very commonly people make that mistake of, I wanna maintain muscle mass, but they're not actually progressing their exercise. They're doing the same. They're like that I thought that was supposed to do. You maintain, you do the same sets, the same reps. As long as you do that, you're maintaining, but actually you're declining. Because you, you want to maintain by actually progressing the weights. And so when you're 50, 60 years of age, you'll have a nice, beefy looking left quad, and then you have more you, obviously you're gonna lose some, but you're gonna have much more to lose. That, in my opinion, is the definition of maintenance. Because you're trying to overshoot your consistency, overshoot your, the amount of strength and muscle mass that you can build as your, as you age. And then you have more despair that defines quality of life there. Because if you just flatline from here, Lily, your quality of life would not be that good in your seventies and eighties. You would just lose a significant amount. Especially Asian women that have bone density issues, and I'm sure you have family members that have that as well. Definitely anybody that's listening definitely have that growth mindset. Don't think that you can just go to the gym and just go through the motions and just do the same stuff. You have to have a mindset like Lily, where. You, we, we caught you. Like just doing the same thing with certain exercises and you're like, oh, that's got, I'm little fearful. I wanna be perfect in it, but sometimes you just have to be like, Hey, it's okay to be imperfect, but it's actually more important to progress, right? You have to challenge yourself within each and every exercise in each and every set. So just a couple more questions here. One thing, I like to inspire people, and this is always just based on your own words because I think whoever I get to interview your words are going to inspire someone. It may not inspire one person because they, I guess they resonate with another message, but I think hopefully whatever you decide to say in your, in individual way will hopefully speak volumes to somebody, right? So somebody that may have chronic knee issues, maybe they don't have chronic knee issues, but they just resonate with who you are as a person. They'll, for someone. I'm listening who's been struggling with either chronic knee pain or any persistent pain. That they feel like can't be solved. Perhaps they feel like they tried and failed a number of things or failed, like the medical system failed them. What message of hope would you want to share based on your experience? On the days I get like a little discouraged I, or try to remind myself, just keep going at it. You don't have to be perfect. Just keep chipping away at it. It took me 10 years to lose all this muscle. It's not gonna come back right away. It's not a, can't expect a miracle. So keep pushing harder weights, consistency, and yeah, every step I take is a step closer to where I wanna be. So just, yeah. Keep going at it. I love that. Looking back at your journey, what do you feel was like the most valuable aspect of us working together and doing this physical therapy program, which, maybe is a little unique with mixture of nutrition and like really pushing the boundaries on like your knowledge and pushing, pushing your limits. Which I don't know even you coming me into this, but what do you feel is the most valuable? Is it like the accountability piece? Just maintaining motivation, having a program set for you. The custom program was honestly so valuable, just tailoring to my schedule what I have access to my needs, and then ha the accountability is a close second. So have it. It's. It's what I could handle. And then you changed it up too, so it didn't get too like stagnant. So those are really helpful. The app was really great, like being able to track my progress and look back on how far I've come. It's really encouraging. So all of those were really great, and then having access to you at any time too was really great. So thanks for answering all my random questions. When I was like, how do I do this? I can't tell, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah, all of it was really great and good. Helped me get me to where I am so good. So if anybody were to say, would you work with Dr. Jay, what would you say to them then? Oh, a thousand percent. Yes. It was best thing ever. And I'm not just saying it, just like seriously giving myself pain-free life. No anxiety about this. I would've spent so much money on this. When, I'm sorry I'm rambling, but I'm like, yeah. When I'm in pain, I was like, I will pay a million dollars to get rid of this pain. And I didn't have to spend that. So very happy. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you had any other final words, but I feel like a lot of the words that you mentioned just speak volume. Just to recap on things that, for some themes that came out of your words it's more like. Don't fear pain, right? It's sometimes you have to push into pain in order to get rid of it. A lot of times you have to realize that sometimes a lot of the passive stuff, whether it's injections or sometimes easy exercises, it's just not gonna cut it. You really have to put in a good amount of effort in order to get to where you want to be, to build up that strength again. We know that accountability comes a long way. A lot of times with chronic pain, your mind will falter, right? You Lily also as well. Yeah. Went through these rollercoasters of emotions. The highs, the lows, the will I get better? Is this even working? Like I said, when you have, hopefully a good accountability coach, like I think like myself you can do amazing things. And lastly yeah, it's just find a practitioners that's empathetic. I think that's actually the most important thing we will. Never sugarcoat how important it is to see you succeed. See any of my clients succeed. I don't care if it's family or even it's a person that found me on Google. It doesn't matter. It's like I know I will put in my a hundred percent. So when it comes to you choosing the right practitioner, if you're listening to this, just choose a practitioner that really, it is not just an expert, but more importantly is like somebody that actually you can feel that they care. That, that's really important because I think a therapeutic alliance, the relationship between a client and a per a practitioner to me is more important than sometimes like the expertise. If they're their textbook their textbook ready and they have a PhD, but they seem apathetic or they seem off-putting. I think you would agree, Lily, like that's not gonna speak volume to you. That's not gonna lead to you being compliant or to like staying with the program. Any case, not sure of your thoughts on that, Lily, in terms of your agreement or if you want to add anything to that, but I think those are some of the themes that I got for, from this conversation with you. Yeah, that's I think that's all I got. Perfect. Okay. Lily I greatly appreciate you. I will continue to touch base with you for hopefully forever and for you to always be able to message me anytime you want. But for the most part, yes, I really hope this definitely inspires. Somebody, to really compel them to make changes and to realize that there is hope when it comes to relieving chronic knee pain or any other pains that are out there that seemingly feel futile, seems lifelong. So Lily, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you. Anytime. Thanks for teaching me how to live pain free. Perfect. All right.